CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

SC's sub thread has me thinking I might want to do something with my audio system and I have a connection at Crown I should be able to get really good deal on a Crown amp. Sadly since Harmon acquired Crown, production at the plant in Elkhart Indiana is winding down as most production is being moved to China so I need to decide what I want to get somewhat soon. Anyway, I'm really dumb when it comes to audio gear so forgive my ignorance. Here a summary of my audio equipment.

HTPC with Asus Xonar Essence ST sound card with w/RCA 7.1 analog out. It's connected to an Atlantic Technology P-2000 Pre/Processor via the 5.1 channel input. My current power amp is a Sony TA-N9000ES 5 channel amp that is selectable as 2 channel 3 channel or 5 channel amp. The mains are PSB Goldi with a Polk Audio CS1000p center channel speaker. Rear speakers are a pair of Definitive Technology BP10 towers. I have four Aura AST-2B-4 Bass Shakers mounted on the risers and driven with a really old Onkyo power amp. The sub is a Velodyne CT-12 front firing unit. Everything is about 10 years old except for the sound card but otherwise in decent shape and IMO sounds pretty decent.

I have noticed when listening to music if I don't switch the power amp to 2 channel mode it does not seem to have enough power to drive the mains. I think in SC's thread he referred to headroom, so IMO I think I could use more. What I thought I could do is get a Crown amp for the mains and then use the Sony for the surrounds and center in 3 channel mode.

I have noticed that most Crown amps are XLR input except the XLS Series. I do see they make XLR to RCA adapters that but I wonder do they cause any issue when using them in a home theater application? I understand the Crowns do have cooling fans but from what I've read they seem to be very tame. What kind of power should I be looking at to give me enough "Headroom" for my PBS speakers?

Mike

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:07 am Post subject:

I just got one in on trade from a restaurant. Lightweight, built in DSP with eq and crossover, blah blah. Computer controlled.

Super complex internally, zero serviceability inside. Crowns, QSCs and BGWs, etc used to be built to last 20+ years. I predict about 10 out of the newer amps. Switching power supply, etc.

Hey, have I ever ranted about disposabilty? Wink

It's still a nicely built amp, I still like Crown, but the building of them in China explains a lot of what I see in the unit I have here. It's a CSi1000 I think.

No problems when running unbalanced into a balanced input, short pins 1 and 3 together of the XLR. Keep in mind that all switching amps MUST HAVE the available current from the AC outlet when pushed hard. If you plug 20 things into a big power bar, and a bass note comes along that needs 10 amps from the AC outlet and the AC voltage sags, you'll clip the amp, blow the speakers. Put each amp like that on a dedicated outlet and you're fine.

BTW, Crown like QSC and others usually are not rating their amps in RMS power anymore to compete with those stupid 'peak power' specs by cheapie amp manufacturers. Just FYI.

greg_mitch · Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5321

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:26 am Post subject:

Keep in mind that speaker watts are pretty ambiguous. It's much easier to blow a speaker with an underrated amp that goes into clipping continuously than it does with an overpowered amp rated at more than what the speakers are, but with it running well below the clipping point.

'Program' power is usually peak power.

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:41 am Post subject:

Ha, in Canada they rolled the number UP. We always laughed that we had 'bigger' TVs up here in Canada, even though they were the same damn sets.

I talked to QSC at a trade show about the wattage ratings, and they openly admitted that it was impossible to get 2000 watts per channel out of an 1800 watt power outlet, but they were losing piles of sales to the low end amp makers that were catering to the Rave DJs etc that only looked at numbers, so all the name brand people followed suit.

greg_mitch · Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5321

There are other alternatives Mike.

Here are some fairly basic consumer amps made for HT.

http://emotiva.com/upa2.shtm

Or the whole theater in a single amp.

http://emotiva.com/xpa5.shtm

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6637

I have a used Krell KAV-500 and I feel no real need to replace it. The damn lights dim when I turn it on but Thumbs Up

!

dturco · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject:

Most likely the switch is lending power to all channels and limiting any channel to a max amount when in 5 channel.

Or 500ww peak available to all 5 channels, limit 75w per channel at a time to decrease the chance clipping.

Something like that.

wildchild22 · Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 185

I use benringer ep-4000 for f,c,r,rl,rr and behringer a-500 for the side l and right surrounds. Massive power I doubt if I could clip them if I wanted. It was cheaper for 3 ep4000 and 1 a500 then emotiva for me. I use 1 channel of the ep4000 for my buttkickers.

These amp are monsters they are clones of QSC-PLX2

ecrabb · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject:

Mike, I'm running three Crown XLS-202D's - putting out about 300wpc into my 4-ohm M&K's... They ran me about $750 for all three after rebates - a lot less than even anything I could have done with Emotiva. They're discontinued now, and everything is going to their lighter-weight class D computerized stuff, now...

I think the closest replacement would now be the XLS-1000... Street price is $299. I would be interesting to find out what kind of a deal your insider could get you!

I really like my Crowns. One thing to be aware of, though... The main problem with pro-sound amps though is the fans. If your rack is outside your room, no problem. If inside, then you'll probably want to look at fan speed mods unless you have them stuck in a corner behind something to soak up the fan noise.

SC

zaphod · Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Posts: 2002 Location: Cloverdale

i beelive that the Crown K series - K2 and K3 - have no fan noise issue.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject:

No offense to anyone, but in general Behringer isn't anywhere close to what Crown is as to build quality, etc. I could be wrong, but I also don't think that A Behringer amp is a clone of a QSC, unless QSC and Behringer are getting the same amps made by the same company in China.... which is possible I guess.

I know that www.inter-m.com was making a whole lot of the Altec, Yamaha, all Samson products and rumor had it that they were making some QSC stuff as well.

wildchild22 · Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 185

Curt you wont affend me. I know Behringer in pro audio is considered crap the exception is the euro power amps.
I can tell you they are heavy and built like tanks. You should have a look at the insides there is a pic there it is a clone of the qsc rmx-2450. The QSC has a bigger transformer but for home use the ep2500 is sufficient
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-amps-high-pass-filters/3658-quieter-fan-mod-behringer-ep2500.html
ep2500

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/27765/83/?SQ=032a9891ff9f425f2063d6ac64e715b1#msg_27765
qsc-2450

also here are some measured results.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10755537#post10755537

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject:

Hmm, interesting. I'd say they probably are made in the same factory judging by the parts and color of the PC board, but also looking at the wiring harness, the Behringer stuff is cutting some corners.

But hey, I sold Inter M amps for many years, still do to a small extent, and in 10+ years, I've only had two of about 200 fail.

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

I just ordered the XLS1500...I can't really say what I paid but was very reasonable.

I'm looking over the manual and it looks very configurable....I was wondering could I get second unit set it up in LowPass Mode and use it to drive subs like SC built...and not use plate amps?

Mike

ecrabb · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject:

You wouldn't even need to use that low-pass mode, Mike... If you're using the LFE-out from your receiver or processor (or HTPC), then the signal will already have a low-pass filter applied (if you're running smaller mains), or will be only LFE (which doesn't have any HF component.)

But, yeah - you could definitely use one to power a sub or two. Definitely. Lots of guys do just that - use prosound amps to drive subs. The most popular is probably the Behringer EP series like the EP2500... They're very cheap for the amount of power they put out... They're a little iffy quality-wise, but most guys aren't too concerned with build quality for HT, and sonics just aren't that important for LFE.

SC

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana

beun · Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 676

Not trying to steer the thread into a different direction, but what kind of amp would have to be developed to replace the Crown for example?

Mono or stereo
Wattage
Filter options
Cost

Kim