Return to the CurtPalme.com main site CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum
A forum with a sense of fun and community for Home Theater enthusiasts!
Products for Sale ] [ FAQ: Hooking it all up ] [ CRT Primer/FAQ ] [ Best/Worst CRT Projectors List ] [ Setup Tips & Manuals ] [ Advanced Procedures ] [ Newsletters ]

 
Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist  Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums  RegisterRegister 
 MembershipClub Membership   ProfileProfile   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in 
Blu-ray disc release list and must-have titles. Buy the latest and best Blu-ray titles to show off in your home theater!


HT Q&A: What's the best Blu-ray player?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    CurtPalme.com Forum Index -> Source Devices
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
benareeno



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
exactly....the psychoacoustic phenomena.....the only way to be definitive is a double blind test...period.
Back to top
Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

benareeno wrote:
exactly....the psychoacoustic phenomena.....the only way to be definitive is a double blind test...period.


Yep, and it amazes me that none of the audio/video magazines are rigorous in their subjective testing at all. Many do objective measurements, but in half the "shootouts" the participants know the products. Heck, I've never seen better than a single blind test in an A/V magazine, and most don't even have that. Have the guy that is reviewing cables or power conditioners do it in a double blind setting, bet that would change some results and loose some advertising $$$$!

_________________
Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
Back to top
View user's photo album (1 photos)
ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
Frankly, no. I have no doubt, he expected to see everything better on other players and low and behold it was! $20 says he couldn't tell the difference if he had no idea of what source he was looking at.

Bingo!!!

He's had the rumor/opinion pounded into his head that optical SPDIF doesn't sound as good as coaxial - that it sounds 'thin' - and that's exactly what he heard. It's called the power of suggestion. Same with the PS3... It's a game machine, not a high-end dedicated player, and he's into high-end stuff. People that think they can do anything resembling quantitative comparisons of equipment in their own homes on their own systems without test equipment, the proper source material, and extensive knowledge of testing are just fooling themselves. He A-B'd Spider Man? That was the extent of his testing? Please.

You know, with all configurability in the PS3, I wonder if something was simply mis-configured when he did his 'testing'.

Now that I think about it... To be fair, these are very complex pieces of equipment. It's certainly possible that the hardware that's decompressing and rendering the MPEG-4 AVC stream to uncompressed digital component is doing something differently than another player. It would be interesting to have somebody with the proper engineering background use a scope and the appropriate HD test patterns compare these players and give some real quantitative analysis instead of seat-of-the pants guesses...

As for the audio remark, if it were simply DD or DTS, like I said up above - I think he's probably full of sh*t. But again, Spiderman 3 is TrueHD. In that case, the player has to transcode on-the-fly to send out a 1.5mbps DTS (or is it DD?) stream over Toslink. So, it has to decode the TrueHD stream, and re-encode the stream to DD/DTS (can't remember which). There could certainly be something dicked up in that software.

Still, I'm suspicious of seat-of-the-pants 'testing' - especially when the results are counter-intuitive.

SC
Back to top
View user's photo album (10 photos)
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15868
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
I find this hard to believe. Producing a 1080i/60 signal from a 1080p/24 is about the simplest task I can imagine. I'm not sure anyone could mess that up.

You're right - it is very simple.

Person99 wrote:
Bear in mind that you don't read MPEG2/4 or VC-1 from the disc and send that out to the display. They don't consume these. Also, all players provide some level of settings (enhanced black, etc) which means they have to mess with the signal. Now, do I believe that in a double-blind test anyone could tell the difference between a PS3 HDMI and one of the others? Frankly, no. I have no doubt, he expected to see everything better on other players and low and behold it was! $20 says he couldn't tell the difference if he had no idea of what source he was looking at.

Probably true. The other place that they mess with the digital signal (at least with the PS3) is volume adjustment: There's a +/- 3 (db?) boost or reduction that you can do to keep the PS3 at around the same 'loudness' as your other source devices. That obviously has to be done in the digital domain.

Kal

_________________

Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (18 photos)
Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:

Now that I think about it... To be fair, these are very complex pieces of equipment. It's certainly possible that the hardware that's decompressing and rendering the MPEG-4 AVC stream to uncompressed digital component is doing something differently than another player.


Yes, this is what I figured was the only POSSIBLE explanation. The reasons I dismissed it as like are:
1) This is fairly well understood and reference implementations exist.
2) Nobody writes their own, this all exists as ICs that manufacturers use. What is the probability that the PS3 uses a different IC that all the others. And even if so, see number 1.


So, the only real problem I could see was a CUE error. Since his display was HDMI, then we can dismiss YCbCr 422 to RGB 444 errors. This only leaves YCbCr 420 to YCbCr 422 errors. But, what is the likelihood of that? Even so, that would only introduce color accuracy, typical CUE issues, or exacerbate motion blur.

Does anyone know what format Spiderman 3 is in? MPEG2 is 4:2:0. MPEG4 allows for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 also (though I don't think commercial discs are using it. All VC-1 is 4:2:0 I believe.

_________________
Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
Back to top
View user's photo album (1 photos)
Erebus1954



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I don't like about my new PS3 is the bluetooth remote. Nothing wrong with the remote itself, but why did Sony not allow a way to control with a universal IR remote? Just when I finally got my URC MX 850 universal IR fully setup, and all the other remotes put away in a drawer.

I've had my eye on a infrared to bluetooth adapter that's been nearing production called the IR2BT. http://www.ir2bt.com/
They are finally in production and I just ordered one. Hope it works out.

_________________
Steve
Back to top
Brian Hampton



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1174



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI,

Don't know if this got covered but...

Ps3 certainly doesn't play vob files. You can convert DVD's and such to MP4s with freeware and it plays those.

And with the big external hard drive you still have a 4GB limitation due to the fact that NTFS is not supported and 4GB is where FAT32 tops out.

-Brian
Back to top
garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10644
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh now THAT seriously blows. Most SD DVD VOB files are greater than 4GB. If you manage to rip BD disks, obviously ALL of those will be well over 4GB. So that effectively ruins the PS3's ability to play ripped movies without breaks in the middle. What a bummer!!

Wonder if they'll ever add support for NTFS?
Back to top
Brian Hampton



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1174



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary,

When you convert the ripped DVD's to Mp4's they usually weigh in under 2Gb actually and certainly under 4Gb. MP4 is pretty efficient. (Of course,.. depends on how much compression you use and such.)

That said... I don't spend much time or energy with DVD's now since there's more and more Blu Rays coming out and Netflix seems to have bought a lot more of them so It's possible (for me anyway) to watch something new on Blu Ray pretty much everyday.

-Brian

p.s.... Of course, the other thing you can do is just thow the DVD into the PS3 and play it that way... but that sort of goes without saying. Smile
Back to top
garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10644
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aw now what fun is that. Smile I really like the ability to rent, rip, and watch at my convenience. Maybe I'd get over that if I ever join Netflix or BBOnline, but it works great for my local rental shop. (Though VOB navigation on my Momitsu v880N sucks compared to actual DVD navigation.)

I'm surprised the MP4s are that much smaller. I thought VOBs were basically a wrapper around MP4 already. (Quick run to Wikipedia) Ahh, no, it's a wrapper on MP2. Are MP4s generally half the size of MP2s?? Guess I could have been using half the disk space with my v880N, since it supports MP4...
Back to top
MYoung



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That and re-encoding a lossy format into another lossy format isn't ideal. Then again, I suppose you gotta do what you gotta do. Here's an idea... KEEP THE HTPC!

As for the Bluetooth remote, one thing I do like about it is that you don't have to aim it. I don't think it glows in the dark or lights up though, which is too bad considering many of us CRTers watch movies in pitch black, the way God intended movies to be watched.
Back to top
Ridebreck



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erebus1954 wrote:
The only thing I don't like about my new PS3 is the bluetooth remote. Nothing wrong with the remote itself, but why did Sony not allow a way to control with a universal IR remote? Just when I finally got my URC MX 850 universal IR fully setup, and all the other remotes put away in a drawer.

I've had my eye on a infrared to bluetooth adapter that's been nearing production called the IR2BT. http://www.ir2bt.com/
They are finally in production and I just ordered one. Hope it works out.


There already exists an IR solution:

http://www.schmartz.com/product.sc?categoryId=1&productId=2

_________________
"Hooray Beer!!"
Back to top
View user's photo album (13 photos)
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15868
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schmartz one is nice as it's only $35 and once installed, you don't notice it. Haven't tried it myself though.

Kal

_________________

Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (18 photos)
benareeno



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, 4GB limit if you're playing from the harddrive...but no limit if you stream, right?

If I have the dvd in front of me, I would just put it in the player...it's downloaded content that I'm referring to.

So, if I stream, do I have to have a specific version of Windows installed or can I just share a folder from XP and have it stream from there? Any ideas?
Back to top
garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10644
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point, Ben. If you're streaming from a media server, it should be able to handle any file size that the media host supports, right?
Back to top
ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, the PS3 won't play a VOB - But, if you just rip your DVD or convert the VOB to a program stream (.mpg or .mpeg), then you're good to go.

As for streaming, you can't just share a directory, as the PS3 would have to have Windows networking built-in. It doesn't. Instead, you can use any DLNA UPnP-compliant server (hardware or software). There are several, but I think the most reliable (and free if you already have a Windows box) is either MCE or WM11. Both of those can stream content to the PS3, and no - there shouldn't be any limitations on file sizes (other than the OS as Gary mentions). I haven't tested the WM11 aspect, because even though I have and use a PC, most of my content including music and photos is on my Mac. So, I bought a UPnP server for OS X called eyeConnect. It isn't perfect, but it works pretty damn well most of the time - streaming MPEG2, MPEG4, photos, and my 20-gig 192kbps AAC iTunes collection. Very cool stuff. PS3 rocks.

What will really get me excited is if Sony decides to follow Apple and make the PS3 recognize and play MPEG 4 w/AC3. Then, I could start ripping all my captured OTA and DirecTV to MP4 - which would SERIOUSLY save some drive space. Every damn movie is at least 8 gigs or so, with many over 10 - which means a lot of them won't fit on DL DVD's. With h.264, I could halve that... which would be way cool.

SC
Back to top
View user's photo album (10 photos)
benareeno



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well...I bought a new/used one today for 3 hundy....I'm going to set it up tonight with a keen interest in streaming video.

If I'm running XP with WM11, will I be good to go?

Ben
Back to top
garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10644
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just about to buy an inexpensive NAS (network storage) for backup purposes, and I noticed that many of them have uPnP servers built in! That's very cool. Don't need a PC running on the LAN that way. But look out -- the WD MyBook drives apparently have DRM software in them, and won't let you share any kind of media file. Sucks. So I won't be buying WD.
Back to top
Erebus1954



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ridebreck wrote:

There already exists an IR solution:

http://www.schmartz.com/product.sc?categoryId=1&productId=2


Oh! Didn't know about that one.

_________________
Steve
Back to top
ralpharch



Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 211
Location: Derwood


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the ability to surf the internet on the PS3.

Since I recently gave my HTPC to my son the only way I can surf on the projector is with the PS#.

But having a USB mouse and keyboard makes this task a lot easier than by using the supplied remote. (I also have the Schmart IR USB device but haven't use it yet)

One caution on streaming is that someone was mentioning in another thread that you do need to transcode to use the PS3 as a streamer. Again I haven't tried streaming ts files yet but was planning on testing it out soon. (I use the Buffalo Linkstation Live media server and that does not appear to be as useable on the PS3 as it is on my IOdata Linkplayers
Back to top
View user's photo album (1 photos)
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    CurtPalme.com Forum Index -> Source Devices All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 2 of 6
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum