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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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That THS3201 chips is really hard to "tame" i tested that on vnbīs and got gain and everything work ok, but there was lot noise on background and it did not looked any better than clc449 bandwidht wise. On Vim that works, least on 2035-02p Wink

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Last edited by 1031 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is how i did that decoupling, that picture is from vim.


caps near op-amp.JPG
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caps near op-amp.JPG



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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1031 wrote:
Funny! I just got those El5166 chips yesterday, quick testing showed that works pretty well, without any resistor changes.
I order those el5166 chips as samples-> went weeks->nothing, so then i asked at Farnell Finland and they said that those are coming to stock, so i ordered those-> after two days i got those free samples and same chips from farnell Mr. Green
Nashou, you use 100pF mica cap for highfreq decoupling, i foundet that wiht least three caps parallel makes better job
So for Vnbīs trye something like that -> 4,7uF tanf + 100nF(that is in there allready) +22nF then that 100Pf mica
And remember that smallest cap should be close to op-amp supply pins, so that 100pF mica works better if you can put it closer to op-amp maybe parallel to those original 100nF caps

Here is good article-> http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=1478&pg=3


Wow you just got those? I remember you ordered those long time ago!!!

I was going to keep the 100nf there, and did in my original test but didnt see that much improvement, i may have to revisit that again or i might use a 100nf radial Mica , that would be easier to add. Also you have 4 caps then the 100nf,4.7uf,22nf,and the 100pf. Isnt that overkill? maybe you can put that 22nf across the power supply pins on the EL5155?
I was going to test the 10nf across those today actually and make an amendment to my post.
And yes i saw how you did the THS3201 on the vim and it just is way too much work for me Wink .

But glad you got it working maybe i'll send you my chips since i wont be useing them.

Athanasios

_________________
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Last edited by Nashou66 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
[

Wow you just got those? 5 remember you ordered those long time ago!!!



I was going to keep the 100nf there, and did in my original test but didnt see that much improvement, i may have to revisit that again or i might use a 100nf radial Mica , that would be easier to add. Also you have 4 caps then the 100nf,4.7uf,22nf,and the 100pf. Isnt that overkill? maybe you can put that 22nf across the power supply pins on the EL5155?
I was going to test the 10nf across those today actually and make an amendment to my post.
And yes i saw how you did the THS3201 on the vim and it just is way too much work for me Wink .

.

Athanasios


Actually i was lazy, i did that order two weeks ago..

No keep those original 100nF caps there but put those 100pF micaīs arcoss them. Those caps on that picture are 15uF low esr tant+470nF cer+ 100nf(that original one) and 47pF cer and that blue one is 100nF and that is between vcc and vdd (+5/-5v)pins. Also i replaced those 4.7ohm resistors with 56uH smd coils. I scoped noise voltage on vcc/vdd pins and that cap combination showed that noise was very low. Much lower than original 4.7ohm+100nF combination.

I think i got those THS-op amps enought ( and lots of other types also..)But thanks.

_________________
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try to add those to my 2005-03p vim and see what it does, that might be a good combination for the THS3201 but it might not work as well with the lower slew rate EL5166.

I plan on adding the 10nf cap across the voltage pins(+5/-5) on the VNB and see if there is any change to the image. I might add a 100nf ceramic to my 4.7uf and 100pf i have on the VNB , i think it be easier to add than the original tant that was there.
I dont have many parts like you have being a teacher, i was going to order a cap kit but they are expensive for one with many values.

I also just got in some SMT inductors that have the 4.7ohm resistance i forgot the uH value but I think it was close to your 56uH and those
BFR93 chips for the VIM. that might be my next mod, i have only done mods to my older 2005-03p VIM but the same process can be done for the newr 2035-02 and 2035-03 vim. They are similar but the newer vim has a better layout and some better parts than the older 2005-03p.

Nice weather is coming so this thread is going to slow down as i have much work in the yard.

Jarmo I know you wanted to maybe make a do it yourself kit to possibly sell so once I set up the Vim mods you can write up an alternate
mod using the THS3201 for those who want to attempt the harder to tame chip and send it to me and I'll try to write up the mods for that also. And you can put together the parts for my mod as well and offer both.

Just a thought for you, I enjoy doing this its a lot of fun and wont mind. Time is the only factor that might slow it down or not allow it to happen.

Athanasios
offer either Kit.

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
.

Jarmo I know you wanted to maybe make a do it yourself kit to possibly sell so once I set up the Vim mods you can write up an alternate
mod using the THS3201 for those who want to attempt the harder to tame chip and send it to me and I'll try to write up the mods for that also. And you can put together the parts for my mod as well and offer both.

Athanasios

I dont think that iīm going to sell any kits/mods( maybe just few for marquee owners here in Finland) There are peapoles like Mike, for that. Dont get me wrong, i just wanted to add some things what i have done. Your efforts are great and i like allways read whats new is happening at this thread Thumbs Up It gives motivation to test new ideas ect..
Iīm not planning to write alternative thread what i have done, but if i got my latest project working good enought and i still have to learn more about pcb desing stuff and finish that pcb. Then that is something what iīm going to share Wink
But lets say that dont throw any old 2005-03p vims to dumpster, they have something what is needet for that project.
And thanks to you Athanasios, those pictures you sendet to me have helped alot on that pcb desing Thumbs Up

_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But lets say that dont throw any old 2005-03p vims to dumpster, they have something what is needet for that project.

I bet your talking about the AD834 chip which some like to use over the AD835. let me make a guess jarmo, your trying to change the 2035-02p to a 2035-03p by making a secondary PCB board to bypass the whole AD835 section on the 2035-02p vim using the AD834 from the 2005-03p vim right? Aslo I think you can get great performance from the 2005-03p vim to bring it even with a stock 20035-03p vim maybe even a bit better. Some people do not want to pay 400-500 for that 2035-03p Vim, for about 100 bucks in parts the 2005-03p can be improved.

Also those AD834 chips are about 34 dollars, those alone are worth it. the AD835 which is lower bandwidth is only 17 dollars.



Athanasios Hatzinerantzis

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes..
http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9516&d=1204904012
That is first prototype..But there is much to do before that is finished Neutral
And if i lose my nerwes with that project, its much possibe that i newer got that ready Mr. Green

_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j065vei6j6s
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah Ha!!! its funny you and I are thousand of mile away but think the same, I was thinking of trying this with my 2035-02p Vim also.

Jarmo's(1031) AD834 bypass board prototype



It looks interesting, You could make it the same size as the original board and use the slot above the
VIM to hold it and some how set it up so when you slide out the VIM the new "AD834 upper section" could
slide out with it. , I could test one of the boards when its all done and maybe come up with a mounting
configuration. But if you could get that PCB downsized to a nice smaller size and have the bare boards
made up id love to add the parts and give it a go.

I also asked Linear technologies for a sample of their single channel SD5401, the ST213 i think it was. I plan to try to use that to bypass that one section on the VIM to elimintate the internal cross talk of the SD5401.
we'll see how that goes.


Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible to made small enough so that could fit top of original vim.That how there is not need for long cables etc..
_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j065vei6j6s
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JTS-Racing-team/204443719572685
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10576
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, how critical is the cleaning with denatured alcohol? I just did the cap mod on the VNB (the electronics shop didn't have any ceramic resistors less than 5W) but I didn't have any denatured on hand. All I had was isopropyl and I didn't want to use something with water in it.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i first started doing the mods i never used it but dust and grime stick to the board more where the solder flux would go, also flux is not good for PCB boards. I got my DA from a local hardware store in the paint department. I would not worry right away but i'd get some and clean them next time you have them out of the PJ.


Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10576
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a bad boy anyway. I don't use flux at all, except what's in the core of the solder... Embarassed
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats the stuff that goes everywhere!!! I only use it on parts i get from e-bay as they might have been lying around longer and get oxidized.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Joust



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2430
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rosin or resin flux does NOT need to be removed. it will in no way harm the board.
Isopropyl alcohol is ok to use, just ensure the area is dry before applying power.
for most things i don't add any supplemental flux. I simply use that built into flux core solder. i use it for touching up multi pinned surface mount chips

the only flux that is bad for boards is that acid stuff mostly used on plumbing. thats bad, never use it.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joust wrote:
rosin or resin flux does NOT need to be removed. it will in no way harm the board.
Isopropyl alcohol is ok to use, just ensure the area is dry before applying power.
for most things i don't add any supplemental flux. I simply use that built into flux core solder. i use it for touching up multi pinned surface mount chips

the only flux that is bad for boards is that acid stuff mostly used on plumbing. thats bad, never use it.


Thanks for the clarification Joust, I always thought it was not good from Mike Parkers thread.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had little time last weekend. I changed those rest (first amps are ths3201 allready)clc449 chips to those EL5166 chips. Yes those are tad better than originals.Nice found Athanasios, those are really easy to chage because there is not need to change any other components Thumbs Up
Maybe i found time to do vnbīs in near future..

_________________
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DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jarmo !! I do like that chip a lot, wait till you change the cap values. I only used the 4.7uf that the data sheet specs. Its too hard to really tewll any benifit from going higher but from the standard 100nf to the 4.7uf you can see the difference on the VIM.

I still have not tried the part you suggested but its soooo nice outside here I have too many things to do that the winter made me put off.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
wait till you change the cap values. I only used the 4.7uf that the data sheet specs.


Cap mods are done Wink I have version 3 off my "1031 vim 500" card now on place, i tested different decoupling things with that card. Instead of those 4.7 ohm resistors i used small ferritebeads (size 1206) and little more capacitance->looks good.
As you can see that card has some errors , there is some jump wires. But i trye to desing that better so maybe some day that card is perfect..



1031 vim 500 v3.JPG
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1031 vim 500 v3.JPG



_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j065vei6j6s
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JTS-Racing-team/204443719572685
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks great Jarmo!!! To connect the card to the lower card maybe you could try to use a pin to socket set up like the daughter cards on the CLM? Understand what i mean?
So are you just taking the video signal straight from the relay on the 2035-02 vim and directing it up to your "1031 Vim 500" ? and how are you getting the internal video
to the RCA? are you still using the SD5401 chip or did you decide to use three seperate analog switches to eliminate the internal cross talk of the SD5401? I'd love you to send me the schematics so i could study them. I envy your enthusiasm to this project!
what size caps? I have those SMT ferrite bead inductors but have not used them yet, they have the same 4.7ohm reading so they should be fine. what are your beads readings?

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal


Last edited by Nashou66 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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