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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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So I will keep the 27uh i have maybe add the 270uh or higer and then put a ceramic .1uf from rail to ground.

diagram:


------------[ 27uh] ---------[ .1uf]-----------24V-----------
------------[270uh] ------------l
-----------------------------GROUND-----------------


Athanasios

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Joust



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2430
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is a Pi flter.
What I was suggesting is to put two caps in parrallel for C1 and for C2. ( 100uf || 0.1uf )



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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looking at the schematics it seams each focus color has its own ground. So connecting those caps to ground would be hard unless you make that filter for each individual color near the existing cap. Wait......... as i look at the schematics now they already have that type of filter , however thy use a resistor instead of the inductor: for the red its C107=470uf(we replaced with 1000uf), R116=1ohm(protection resistor it looks like) and C105=100nf. So the inductor we are adding is an addition to the already exisisting filter. So there are 6 filters like this for the + and - 24 volt rails. we could add 6 inductors across the positive leads for the +24 volt rail and the negative leads for the -24 volt rail, from the 1000uf cap to the 100nf cap. but looking at the actual board there is not much room for the bigger inductor like the one i have on the traces. A smaller physical size would be needed as you can see in this next picture:

Where inductor could go for -24 from - side of removed cap 308 to cap 306



+24 volt RC filter



Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal


Last edited by Nashou66 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well I finally Broke down a got an Oscilloscope!!! I was out bid on three today before I won this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230229745957&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=013

Now I have to learn how to properly use it !!! Hopefully this will help me with my work on the marquees and decide what makes a difference scope wise and what parts/values will make the best choice for use.

If anyone has a good web site on using a scope or a book i should get post back!! TSE any ideas would be great !

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Joust



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2430
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that filter is not the same.
Its Q would be a LOT lower than the one i proposed. Also it provides a voltage drop which mine should not.

also. the 24v will have a common ground for all colours. if there were seperate gounds for all colours to teh power supply level then they would have separate 24v sources as well. remember. With respect to AC signals, both + and - DC voltages and ground are the same.
I'd add the inductor and the second pair of caps AFTER the filter you pictured (c107 and c106)
100nf = 0.1uf
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Joust



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2430
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I looked at the schematic of the focus module.
The +/- 24 volts goes in common to the the board but three seperate grounds go in.
here is what I'd do.

I would put one large inductor in series with the 24volt lines.
then I'd put a PI filter just after the 1ohm resistor. going to each colour. there is plenty of room.
TO measure the current draw its VERY easy. just solder wires across the 1ohm resistor and measure voltage drop across that resistor.
its 1 ohm so the math is uber simple. OHMs law.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there is plenty of room.


Is that from looking at the board or schematics? I have both the older and the newer boards here and can not find anyplace on either board ,especially the older board, for two caps unless you have long leads and place the cap high above the board. Not doubting what your trying to do but it just seems physically impossible with the board layout.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Joust



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2430
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at my board.
Obviously it won't plug right in but if there is space, It can be made to work.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah its very very tight on both boards. It just looks like that is what they are doing with the 470uf(now 1000uf) and 100nf cap and resistor , its a RC filter right? . I was wondering if we could lift one end of the 1ohm resistor and put one end of the inductor to the through hole left from the lifted resistor and then the other end to the inductor to the lifted end of the resistor? I have those color wheel inductors that look like fat resistors and have the same color coding as resistors but they are for henries not ohms. And forget about adding more capacitors as I think the two there for each colour already should suffice. Unless we filter each rail right near the connector to the mother board with the caps using the gnd on pin 7 and 8 .

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Joust



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2430
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anything you do will help.
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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tested with my another FCM those inductors.. This is what i used (just had those )
http://fi.farnell.com/1077059/passive-components/product.us0?sku=MURATA-POWER-SOLUTIONS-1468362C

I used those to +-15 and +-24volt lines. Quick scoping showed that noise on those lines did not lowered much Sad
Also i really did not noticed any real improvements on picture..

There is two type noise on those lines
: lowfreq "pulse"type spikes that are formed by current that fcm takes
And higher freq. noise component that "rides" over those voltages.
Results with those inductors showed that that noise "removing" is much more than putting inductors to supply lines.
Remember that noise is "two way" thing. Current that fcm takes forms noise and noise that is on supply voltage (generated by lvps and other modules)
I havent got extra time for looking where those noises are generated and what type of noise different modules generate..
but i have strong feeling that highfreq. noise is generated on fcm itself, there is D/A converter that drives op-amps and op-amps drives those output-transistors. I must look closer but it seems that some "sampling" noise from D/A converter is supplied to those op-amps and so on. That is my theory.. And if that theory is right, then best place to remove noise is output of that D/A converter. Lowpass filter is needet for that. it must pass freq. up to 150-200Khz so that doesent made any changement to drive signal. Maybe ferritebead works there.. Question Must test that

But guys, Iīm not any kind expert here, just "tv-repairman" who just happent to have projector, And likes to play with it Mr. Green Many of my testings are not based on knowledge( little yes, but iīm not engineer), just simple testing. I dont like post things "right now" i test those "things/mods" by time. If something works ok on long run then i might post details.
I remember when i got my 1272 sony before marquee, i added some ferritebeads->noticet little improvemets-> added more..More and after few months all el-caps on dynamic focus board was bad..I dont want to do anything that might do harm to someones elses projector..So everyone who like to trye things on this thread must do those things at own risk.
And also my English skills are quite bad.. So there can be some "miscommunications"
Neutral

_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jarmo for your input and scoping the rails. I soon will be getting a scope and hope it will be in good working order. So we now know there are two types of noise and inductors alone llower it but not by much so the filtering that Joust proposed can also be applied or the whole idea can be scraped and we move on.
Another thing Jarmo we have to remeber about inductors is they are not only for removing noise but also smooth out the current. And that board cotrols the focus of the dots, so if the current is smooth and stable then that dot size will also stay smooth and stable. But that would need to be scoped also. I need to order some random electrolytics to use for filtering in the values Joust said and maybe some other values.

Quote:
but i have strong feeling that highfreq. noise is generated on fcm itself, there is D/A converter that drives op-amps and op-amps drives those output-transistors. I must look closer but it seems that some "sampling" noise from D/A converter is supplied to those op-amps and so on. That is my theory.. And if that theory is right, then best place to remove noise is output of that D/A converter.


I agree with this as this is why KBK changed out almost all the caps on his CLM as there is more digital noise on the board that gets into the analog signals. I will have to look at how to lower the dacs output if its possible.

Since you know there are low and high frquency noise on those rails +/-24 I think I will keep the 27uh inductors in and maybe put in parallel a 220uh colorwheel inductor as well, I higher value may be needed.and will try to add caps to the connector pins of the focus board. Once i get my scope and learn how to use it Wink i will also be able to help out with your scoping tests and test for any smoothing of the signal they may have, a stable tight focus is what we are after and if we can substantialy tighten the dot maybe the franken yokes will not be an absolute needed component, espescially since they are hard to find.


Quote:
I dont want to do anything that might do harm to someones elses projector..So everyone who like to trye things on this thread must do those things at own risk.
And also my English skills are quite bad.. So there can be some "miscommunications"


This is also stated by me at the begining of this thread, as I have taken risk in doing these mods as well from past posts and from others, as they also stated in thier original posts. So far after a few months of using my projector with the mods mentiond , besides the inductor mods to this focus board all has been fine.

Thanks Joust , Jarmo and TSE for your input and keep it comming! Very Happy

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said

Quote:
I think I will keep the 27uh inductors in and maybe put in parallel a 220uh colorwheel inductor as well, I higher value may be needed


Dont use any inductors with any ohm reading over 1 ohm the smallest dcr the better. I used those 220uh colorwheel inductors and did not measure the ohms before i used them, they were a 3ohm resitance and would not allow the power supply to turn on, also it did something to my left and right focus ability. I am trying to track it down with TSE's help, it is weird tho that a lower supply of power would damage a component, unless it sent a surge when trying to keep turning on.

I know its not any of the trhee op amps as i switched them out and the problem still persists. The left right edge focus are controled by a series of transistors, and each side left and right are controled seperately, which makes it odd that 6 transitor would all go together, so we are looking for a common component that maye have gone, cap,diode, resistor?


Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal


Last edited by Nashou66 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joust



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2430
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
I think I will keep the 27uh inductors in and maybe put in parallel a 220uh colorwheel inductor as well, I higher value may be needed


putting them in parallel will only further reduce the overall inductance.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was edidting my post when you just posted go back and read the rest soory i hit submit instead fo advanced.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All right, its not only the focus board . Something went bad on my CLM from the FWG section. when i overloaded the LVPS it must have put strain one the WFG circuits and took out an amp. I will try to replace them on by one to see which one it is. I'll start with U82.

Edit :
#1: U82 swapped with no change. 3/20 @ 10:11 pm
#2: U73 Swapped with slight focus ability for red and green, even less for blue. 3/20 @ 11:25 pm
#3: U76 Swapped it out and CLM is back in working order, This was tested with another focus board. The focus board I was testing the 220uh color wheel inductors on only shows a problem now with the left blue side.
So with fixing U76 on the clm it solved most of the focusing problems now I need to track down the left side out of focus blue.


Athanasios

PS: Scope should be deliverd today Smile

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally got the time to use my new scope ! Smile This and TSE's help make things much easier. With the scope and using the test points Scott had me check i was able to see that the left and right side focus waves coming from the S pin on q113(red) and I compared this to a good FCM the wave, it is all distorted and of different sizes compared to the good board. So I am narrowing it down. Anyone interested in trouble shooting board level problems should get a scope as its lets you see problems you may otherwise not have been able to with just a simple multimeter.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou. When you got marquee running again, test these http://fi.farnell.com/1097184/semiconductors/product.us0?sku=PHILIPS-BFT93
You need six transistors.. Those are for vim ( drive stage, after contrast chips)
I tested those and so far seems good. But i want hear second opininon Mr. Green

_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j065vei6j6s
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JTS-Racing-team/204443719572685
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at the transistors and voltage regulators on all boards Jarmo too! . I think I narrowed down the problem on the focus board Just waiting Scott to check out my findings and advise. Its weird it seems like all 9 mosfets went bad together. Very Weird. I'll order those tiny little chips with my mosfett order. I need to pull the mosfets off the board and check them that way just to make sure they went bad. And jarmo I got my scope! maybe you can teach me how to check noise in the power lines using it.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
Back to top
View user's photo album (1 photos)
1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
And jarmo I got my scope! maybe you can teach me how to check noise in the power lines using it.

Athanasios


You must use "ac-coupling" function at scope, that how you can measure ac-component that "rides" over dc-voltage.
Usually that knob( dc/ Gnd/ ac) is near bnc input connector at scope. Then you can use lower volts/division settings on scope and ac-component is easyer to read.

I googled some tips for you-> http://www.educypedia.be/electronics/measurementosc.htm

_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j065vei6j6s
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JTS-Racing-team/204443719572685
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