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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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barclay66



Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1250
Location: Germany

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Hi,

I think that a methodical approach could give you the best results:

- Determine the type of drift. Is it geometry, convergence, focus, brightness or else?
- Work on one at a time.
- Identify the boards involved (e.g. Control board + Convergence Amplifier Board for convergence drift).
- Identify the components that produce most of the heat on them.
- Monitor the temperatures at those components (multiple measurements over time).
- Try freezing spray on them (do not use too much of it) and look for sudden changes in drift behaviour.
- Replace the components involved with better quality ones (tighter specs and/or less tolerance) or improve their cooling.

Regards,
barclay66

P.S.: Cooling the large heat sink is a very good idea and has yielded very good results on many machines (including mine).

P.P.S: I had very good results with the usage of 0.1% tolerance voltage references on several boards. Information can be found in this thread (search for LM4040).
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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Barclay66

This first picture is from 12:22


Than there was a steady drift that went on till this picture at 14:01


Difficult to catch on the photo's but I see red and blue going from bottom right to top left. This is in the centre of the screen.

So I am thinking this is static drift but green does not drift the same as blue and red so is it convergence too?

Right now I tried another vertical board and the vertical drift is even more now. So I am thinking on replacing the caps on the vertical board first. The small resistors are already replaced. All done as MP has showed me on a modified board.

My horizontal drift used to be much worse with another horizontal deflection board. Now I have a VDC board from 2005 and it is better.

But because there is still a little drift I am thinking that
-the caps of the vdc boards are to cheap or also 10 years old and need to be replaced.
-this small drift is not caused by caps and I have to look at the heatsinc or regulators or perhaps glue in the yokes?

Other things I did:
I completely upgraded the convergence board with resistors and caps as MP has showed and that helped a little too.

I repaired a 2005 VDC focus board and if I remember well it helped a little too but also has the cheap VDC caps.

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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok let me get this clear. I am a little panicking with so much possibilities.

I could get some freezing spray and spray the caps on the different boards to diagnose.
I could get a temp meter to see what parts are constantly rising in temperature.

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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Barclay mentioned, going 1% resistors really help where they are not otherwise installed.

But the best solution I've found so far, was to clean the rear heatsink heat transfer material that separates the transistors from the heatsink.

Clean that surface with alcohol (at least 91%) or other solvant. Message that strip well using the alcohol and a clean cloth as to restore it to its subtle nature.

Once the strip is all cleaned up, you'll need to use Silver heat transfer instead of the white gunk. It's the same stuff they use on computer processor heatsink. It's expensive, but it does the job very well. And all you need is a thin amount on the strip. Don't put too much or gunk it on.



When checking for drifting, also check the room temperature during the same period of time
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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok bought me some measuring stuff and pasta. Figured that if I have to replace 100 electrolytics without knowing for sure an ESR meter might be wise.

The shop told me not to use both pasta and tape. they said it would be double layer and bad cooling. But I think going for a very thin layer is better.


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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just did an interesting observation. I left the Marquee in standby where only the LVPS fans are running and now I restarted and I see no static drift. Before I shot the Marquee down I made sure it had drifted over an hour and I converged. Now several hours later still converged in the middle.

This might mean that my problem is in the LVPS? I could just leave the set on standby forever but than the filament is still on and that worries me.

edit: was not correct. it just takes more than a hour to drift back.

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Last edited by redfox001 on Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turns out that the G-Luxon caps have half the ESR from the Rubicon Shocked
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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redfox001 wrote:
I just did an interesting observation. I left the Marquee in standby where only the LVPS fans are running and now I restarted and I see no static drift. Before I shot the Marquee down I made sure it had drifted over an hour and I converged. Now several hours later still converged in the middle.

This might mean that my problem is in the LVPS? I could just leave the set on standby forever but than the filament is still on and that worries me.

edit: was not correct. it just takes more than a hour to drift back.


Here is a riddle to solve. Red drifted vertical even after two hours.

Turning the Marquee off I monitored the temperatures on all heatsincs and parts. It went down and after an houre was almost back to normal but still the drift was full blown.

What part could hold the heat that long? Glycol? Perhaps parts inside the lvps?

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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Done a new test. I converged yesterday after 2 hours or more drifting.

Today I fired up after disconnecting the focus and astig yokes (Frankenyokes).

After about an hour I shut down and reconnected the yokes and observed that there had been no vertical drift see the picture.




So I think I can conclude the drifting happens in the focus or astig system. Now most likely that would be in the Frankenyokes! Probable the yoke stays warm over an hour after shut down. Somehow the thermal expansion shifts the beam somewhat.

So I have to take the tubes out and see what I messed up there and if it can be fixed. Crying or Very sad

I think we can rule out that the static convergence in the horizontal or vertical board is the problem.

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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small update so I remember it myself. The vertical drift in the first hour is very small now. I replaced the caps on the vertical board with rubicons from another board. The first time I started the projector that seemed a bad idea because it drifted a lot. But now these caps seem to be reformatted and almost all vertical drift in the first hour is gone.

The remaining drift seems something in the tube electronics.

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barclay66



Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1250
Location: Germany

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

If You're not using the original focus coils You may encounter some kind of drift. The original ones have a thermistor inside of them that will feed back into the static focus setting. The reason for this is the fact that magnetic strength not only is frequency dependant (which is why we have switched capacitors in the dynamic focus section) but also temperature dependant.
So why could that have an effect on the raster position?

Well, if the stigmator settings (mechanical ones on the rings and electrical ones) aren't 100% perfect the raster will move as soon as You change the focus settings. Just try by Yourself:

- Display the grid pattern pressing <#> once
- Press <PIC> <4>
- Increase/Decrease the focus setting
- Observe the grid

I'm quite sure that not only You will see the change in focus (expected behaviour) but also a shift in convergence.
The only way to avoid this is a fine tuning of the stigmator settings. I won't go much into details as this has been discussed quite often already:

- Set all electrical stigmator settings to neutral (50 and 50)
- Disconnect the stigmator cables from all tubes (power off the PJ before doing this!)
- Do the following tube by tube
- Work the stimator rings on the tubes for optimum result (round dots and minimum "smearing")
- Verify by moving focus up and down (dots shouldn't move)
- Reconnect the stigmator cables from all tubes (power off the PJ before doing this!)
- Touch up the stigmator settings in the middle and the corners...

Regards,
barclay66

P.S.: Do not reuse caps from other boards. They're not much younger than the ones You're replacing. When I replace caps I mostly go with Panasonic FM and FR series (Low ESR, Long Life).
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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some good news. There is very little vertical drift left and I know some resistors to replace on the vertical board to try further improving that. It in fact got better with the Rubicon caps replacing the G-Luxon but it took a while and I misinterpreted what I saw at first.

Yesterday I watched over 2 hours and this morning I made a picture at startup. Vertical red and blue are almost perfect right away. Horizontal some drift left.

What did the trick was that I observed that the vertical drift was worse with another vertical board even though that board was newer and had wima caps but all the other parts where mostly the same as the other board. The biggest difference was that the newer board used the cheap G-Luxon caps in some places. I took another board with Rubicon caps and replaced the G-Luxon to test. Now after that I observed the very bad vertical drift however I watched some movies and had it on over 2 hours and in the last 1/2 hour a large vertical drift happened. The next morning (yesterday) I started the projector without the focus coils and noticed that there was no vertical drift. However after connecting the focus coils there was no vertical drift either. So I came to the wrong conclusion at first blaming the focus yokes.

Hmmmm so I watched a movie yesterday and there was not much drift it looked perfect. That kind of surprised me. This morning I checked and almost no drift. The vertical drift left is very small and takes a long time. I will check the resistors first as possible cause.

So after all I think I was wrong blaming the yokes. It was a coincidence that the old Rubicon caps reformated after 2 hours and that there was no drift after disconnecting the yokes. The old Rubicon where probable over 15 years old as it seems Electrohome used the better Rubicon where VDC used the G-Luxon. However I must add that the difference is only a very small temp drift.

Now I think I will replace the G-Luxon on the horizontal board too. When buying new I will buy Panasonic. If I want to go cheap I might try measuring some older Rubicon Smile

Yes my astig is as perfect as I can get it. No movement when I ramp the focus.

Thanks for helping!!!!

11:00


11:30 some horizontal drift left

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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panasonic FR
● Low ESR (Same as FM Series)
● Endurance : 5000 h to 10000 h at +105 C
● RoHS directive compliant
http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ABA0000/ABA0000CE132.pdf

Panasonic FM
● Low impedance (40 % to 70 % less than FC Series)
● Endurance : 2000 h to 7000 h at +105 C
● RoHS directive compliant
http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ABA0000/ABA0000CE108.pdf

Panasonic FC
● Endurance : 105 C 1000 h to 5000 h ● Low impedance
● AEC-Q200 qualified✽
● RoHS directive compliant
http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ABA0000/ABA0000CE22.pdf

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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strange thing. I replaced some resistors in the way my not function mp vdm has them and result is the vertical squeeze mod and it seems no vertical drifting anymore. I can hardly believe it. The resistors where not the ones etech mentions??? Perhaps the adjusting of the vertical range did the trick? i have to check this some more times almost magic. Very Happy


edit: to soon. It just took over 2 hours to drift back. on to the next thing on the list that is the heatsinc

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tschaeikaei



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 470
Location: Germany/Saarland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tube modification done! I don't know yet if this does enhance the performance, there's still some fine tuning do do.
Regards, Julian



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Self-build 15"-LCD Beamer with 400W HRI bulb
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redfox001



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2240
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice indeed only fine stuff left Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


With mine I found out that likely the old caps I use are the problem. I have very little vertical drift left but when starting up the convergence did shift a number of times. This happened since i put the old caps in and put me on the wrong leg a number of times. I am going for some pannies.

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tschaeikaei



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 470
Location: Germany/Saarland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding ESR (in common) what i heard, saw and measured:
- Bigger caps (mechanical bigger cases) do usually have lower esr than smaller ones with the same values.
- old /used caps can have leakages you cannot measure with a standard tester.
They may experience internal arcing at higher voltages only. Your testing equipment uses under 5V
to measure ESR /capacitance / voltage drop.
That is not very expressive for a 50V or 400V cap. In fact, you would have to load the cap with the voltage printed on it
and measure the voltage (after removing the power supply). Then you could figure out the internal resistance of your voltmeter and calculate the nominal time the voltage should drop to a certain value.
And since this is some work and since you would need different voltages, avoid this by buying high quality new caps.
It may also be that a cap with perfect measured values will fail after two weeks or twenty years.
Thats also possible with new parts, but the chance is far lower.
I always use as many used parts i can. But not in my beloved projectors.
There are other projects (less complicated than a CRT PJ) where used parts can be soldered in.
Simplest way to measure a cap could be the following: load it (using a resistor in series) with the nominal voltage,
leave the power supply connected and measure the flowing current. If the current doesn't drop further, the cap is "full".
If any current is flowing- the cap leaks.

Regards, Julian

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small Teufel 5.1 Audio | HTPC | Pioneer HPM 100
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tschaeikaei



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 470
Location: Germany/Saarland


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just in case someone needs to make a new tube groundplate, like i do. They differ from 8 to 9".
Just a drawing (big file size) showing the version for 9" tubes.
http://abload.de/img/rhrengrundplatte9500lu5kl6.png
Measurements are in Millimeters. Feel free to transfer back to inches or whatever crazy units you use Smile
Tap holes are 5.1mm in reality. But use a 5mm drill bit, does work in aluminum.

Regards, Julian

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small Teufel 5.1 Audio | HTPC | Pioneer HPM 100
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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8744
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anyone ever figure out why some MArquee video neck boards run hot on the big 400V power resistor? I thought at first it was leaking bypass caps, the two AL can 22uf/85V factor ones are terrible (and under-rated), but putting in new 22uf /160V doesn't help.

Bad diode further up the chain?

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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

draganm wrote:
Did anyone ever figure out why some MArquee video neck boards run hot on the big 400V power resistor? I thought at first it was leaking bypass caps, the two AL can 22uf/85V factor ones are terrible (and under-rated), but putting in new 22uf /160V doesn't help.

Bad diode further up the chain?


Does the board working otherwise?

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