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Soundproofing questions..
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ronholm



Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12102



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Soundproofing questions.. Reply with quote


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I have a project building a HT for a customer. He wants to be able to "Crank up the Volume" while watching NASCAR and not disturb his wife in the room above... Also in this same finish there is about 2500 sq ft "arcade" he Wants the Kids to be able play Air Hockey without hearing it in his office.. Also I am finishing a "Mother in law" quarters above his garage. One wall of this backs up to his daughters bedroom... I guess he doesn't want his daughter to have to listen to late night Bridge match's...

I have a couple tricks that I typically use but I think this guy might be pickier than some. The sky isn't the limit with this budget, but is seems bing soundproof is VERY important..


As I research this, ya'll have any ideas on what is the best bang for the buck...


BTW the HT is going to be very cool.. Dungeon themed with 9ft weather oak riveted doors and fuax stone walls and all... Still working on the CRT conversion though

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

I'm sure you didn't mean it literally, but as you know, with HT, short of building a completely separate building, there is really no 'sound proofing' - only different levels of isolation. Your client sounds like he has some special requirements/wishes and potentially some high expectations. Given that, if it's at all possible, I'd get a pro involved. I know you said budget is a concern, but in truth that's all the more reason to get somebody involved that really knows what they're doing - both so you can maximize your client's dollars, and so you can properly manage his expectations. As you're well aware, with all things construction, there's low-cost/low performance, high-cost/high performance materials and assemblies, and everything in-between. You really need somebody that can advise you on what you will and will not be able to accomplish. Even if it's just to engage them long enough to get some helpful pointers, material specs, sourcing, construction techniques, etc. as opposed to full-on design specs.

There's a LOT of info on isolation over in the AVS builder forum. After hanging out there and reading for literally hundreds of hours over the years, I feel like I know just enough now to know there's a lot I sill don't know or properly understand. I know just enough to be dangerous and to make some educated decisions on what I wanted to with my theater within my relatively constrained.

Generally, for an HT though... Double 5/8" drywall with Green Glue between - GG is a constrained layer dampener. Double 1/2" is a cheaper/lower-performance alternative. If you have the budget and space, you can do true room within a room with staggered studs and recessed ceiling joists so the HT shares hardly any framing with adjoining spaces. You can do hat channel and RSIC clips, with our without staggered studs. Then, there's everything in-between.

Of course, that's all isolation - keeping sound in and out of the theater. That doesn't even begin to address how the room actually sounds INSIDE the theater once you watch a movie or concert.

Dennis Erskine is probably most well-known over at AVS. He's designed and built a lot of HT's, but I'm sure you could employ his services as consultant, too. He knows his sh*t.

http://www.designcinema.com/services.html

I've meet Dennis and Marc, and they're nice guys.

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ronholm



Joined: 26 Jan 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Ron,



Generally, for an HT though... Double 5/8" drywall with Green Glue between - GG is a constrained layer dampener. Double 1/2" is a cheaper/lower-performance alternative. If you have the budget and space, you can do true room within a room with staggered studs and recessed ceiling joists so the HT shares hardly any framing with adjoining spaces. You can do hat channel and RSIC clips, with our without staggered studs. Then, there's everything in-between.




SC


That was kinda the plan... For the walls I plan on having a 2x6 base plate, isoloated from the floor and the ceiling, and alternating 2x4 studs and then the double rock...

Some channels in the ceiling that won't share framing with the flooring..... and doubled with Green glue...

Just looking for some other things I may have missed, since soundproofing is not a regular thing for me...


I have one bathroom space that already has the finished ceiling below (not going there) and the sub floor down... This won't be perfect but I have to come up with a little something because his words... " I don't want to listen to my mother taking a crapp"

Quote:

Of course, that's all isolation - keeping sound in and out of the theater. That doesn't even begin to address how the room actually sounds INSIDE the theater once you watch a movie or concert.


He seemed less concerned about this... Right now the plan is a "stone" floor to complement the "dungeon" look.. Even with an area rug this will not be the best sounding HT I fear... I hope to talk him out of that one.. But... I am here to give him what he wants..





The amount of money to be spent on this portion of the project is going to directly depend on the results. This guy is a sensible fellow... But I am finishing Almost 3000 sq ft of basement space and a 1000 sq ft apartment.. In a home that it very very nicely built.. So lets be honest.. When finishing a "Arcade"( to compliment the batting cage) and a HT in this type of environment.. This part of the project is all not bucks out... But for the right results...


So with that in mind..

Quote:

Given that, if it's at all possible, I'd get a pro involved. I know you said budget is a concern, but in truth that's all the more reason to get somebody involved that really knows what they're doing - both so you can maximize your client's dollars, and so you can properly manage his expectations




That sounds like a plan...

Quote:

Dennis Erskine is probably most well-known over at AVS. He's designed and built a lot of HT's, but I'm sure you could employ his services as consultant, too. He knows his sh*t.

http://www.designcinema.com/services.html


thanks I will look him up....

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jask



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am starting to wonder Ron,
Dungeon,soundproof,heavy oak door....If this guy asks you to build some heavy custom furniture with chains and straps- be nervous.

seriously though sounds like the perfect room to escape into!! there are at least 3 or 4 closet pirates( that could use a dungeon) around this forum alone!
see if you can post pics when it is finished.
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ronholm



Joined: 26 Jan 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jask wrote:
I am starting to wonder Ron,
Dungeon,soundproof,heavy oak door....If this guy asks you to build some heavy custom furniture with chains and straps- be nervous.

seriously though sounds like the perfect room to escape into!! there are at least 3 or 4 closet pirates( that could use a dungeon) around this forum alone!
see if you can post pics when it is finished.



HEHe... That is the same thing I was thinking at first... The guy is a real Character. LOL... I guess that makes it easy for me to relate... LMAO...



Out side the HT we are going to try and replicate this picture of an Irish pub the guy has...


Ecrabb what is the best way to reach your contacts...

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Person99



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the techniques will stop everything but bass. The only thing that stops bass is mass and most people can't put enough mass to stop the bass. Dennis did a house here in TX where he stopped the bass, but he had to tear down part of the house to reinforce the frame enough to hold the mass required to stop the bass. So, unless you are willing to watch movies with the bass turned down, you cannot practically achieve what you are going for.
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ronholm



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
Most of the techniques will stop everything but bass. The only thing that stops bass is mass and most people can't put enough mass to stop the bass. Dennis did a house here in TX where he stopped the base, but he had to tear down part of the house to reinforce the frame enough to hold the mass required to stop the bass. So, unless you are willing to watch movies with the bass turned down, you cannot practically achieve what you are going for.


That is what I have been reading... Thanks Dave...

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave's right about mass being the only thing that will stop bass. That's why I said the only perfect isolation is a completely separate structure. Even then, you'd need to build a concrete bunker to completely isolate it. But, double-drywall, Green Glue and staggered stud - true room-within a room construction - will go a LONG way to make the theater friendly to the rest of the house.

My best frame of reference - and I truly mean reference - is Art Sonneborn's theater. With the theater running at reference levels - VERY loud - you can barely hear it when you're downstairs. It sounds like the subtle rumble of far-off thunder in the rooms directly below the theater. Inside the room, the chairs are shaking so much they feel like they have bass shakers in them - but they don't. The room can sound like a damn train wreck in a hurricane, and downstairs, it will be a very light, low rumble. You can barely hear it in a room full of people talking. Late at night when it's quiet, it's more noticeable, but still not at all obnoxious. So, it is possible to do isolation really well - it's just a matter of having the space and budget.

I don't have any personal contacts, Ron. Dennis Erskine is the most well-known at AVS, but I'm sure there are others. You could start with the custom installer database thread at AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=420992

Dennis' company (Design Cinema Privée) is there, as well a whole lot of others. You might try calling a couple of local guys and see if they have somebody that really knows what they're doing and would be willing to work with you on design and construction specs - and costing.

Here's an article about Marc Ye and Design Cinema Privée:
http://www.hometheatrepoint.com/archive/2006/01/31/marc-build-a-90000-movie-room-an-opens-own-theater-design-company/

The $210,000 theater is Art's old theater. Same room, but he has new equipment now. I'm not sure how much of the house addition construction is included in the $210k figure, or if that figure was after the shell was built. All I know is it's a real experience to see and hear his system.

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paw



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ronholm wrote:


Just looking for some other things I may have missed, since soundproofing is not a regular thing for me...


I have one bathroom space that already has the finished ceiling below (not going there) and the sub floor down... This won't be perfect but I have to come up with a little something because his words... " I don't want to listen to my mother taking a crapp"



I've got noisy bathroom exhaust fans. I've thought about replacing them with quiet ones. Then I decided that the fan noise was better than crapping noise. Wink

Sounds like people are pointing you in the right direction. I know that Rives Audio does design work also

http://www.rivesaudio.com/home/home.html

If your client wants a hard floor, you may need a soft (absorbent) ceiling.

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lyd



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds to me like it might actually be cheaper to build an outbuilding for the theater, and rent an apartment for the mother. Wink

lyd

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dc_pilgrim



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you been to Art's since the Seaton sound upgrades? The LFE shakes his siding, it rumbles everywhere. His room was a pre-GG room. My LFE is far from reference, but my room does decent with DD+GG+RSIC (ceiling)+stag stud (walls).

The basics have been covered - don't forget HVAC though. Supplies and return. Put flexible ducts in, at least 2-3 90 degree turns, etc.
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garyfritz



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, I was going to say HVAC. If you tie it into the same HVAC as the rest of the house, sound will travel through the ductwork. Ideal is to have a separate HVAC for the theater area.
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dc_pilgrim wrote:
Have you been to Art's since the Seaton sound upgrades? The LFE shakes his siding, it rumbles everywhere. His room was a pre-GG room. My LFE is far from reference, but my room does decent with DD+GG+RSIC (ceiling)+stag stud (walls).

Yep - last summer. It's friggin' incredible. Maybe I wasn't paying too much attention when I was downstairs, but I didn't think the rumbling downstairs was that bad (considering the sound inside at least). His meets are so big now, maybe there was so much noise downstairs it was hard to get a handle on the sound outside the theater. The LFE is definitely incredible. When he really lets it rip, sometimes it feels more like a theme park ride than a theater (home or otherwise). Obviously, no stick-built construction - regardless of materials and techniques - is going to isolate that kind of energy. But for a NORMAL setup, I think the standard techniques do a pretty good job.

I built my room without staggered studs and RSIC to save time, money and space, and I'm still amazed at how well it does with only DD and GG on Integrity Gasket. I'm quite happy with how it turned out given what I spent, but I certainly can't watch at anything close to reference levels at night with the kids in bed. Explosions, shock waves - any deep/loud LFE and and they'd be up for sure. My theater sounds more like a close thunderstorm when you're upstairs above the theater. Wink

The isolation also came out pretty decent for outside sound. Before I turn any equipment on, it's like a sensory deprivation chamber. I can't hear wind, rain, traffic, jets... nothing... except for footsteps or kids' toys on the floor above (hardwood).

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ronholm



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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plan now for the HT is staggered studs with doubled drywall and the fancy glue for the walls... A separate HVAC unit services the basement and will be ran with Flexible insulated ducting.. I do have a vent for the upstairs that must run through the HT ceiling though ..

The ceiling in the HT will have RSIC track and insulated with either bats or foam, and then a single layer of Drywall... Then a separate ceiling will be framed to provide the finished Surface in the HT... This will be finished with ????? LOL...


has anyone ever had any experience with "quiet rock"

http://www.quietsolution.com/

http://www.quietsolution.com/Quiet_Solution_announces_new_QuietRock_525.pdf

45 bucks a sheet but my drywall sub has installed quite a bit of the stuff and claims to have no complaints.. He might be selling to a different group of folks though...






At this point I think the biggest problem I am going to have it the bathroom floor.... I am thinking I need to use something similar to the Integrity Gasket b/t the sub floor and the Underlayment??? And fill the joist cavities with closed cell foam insulation???

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to check with somebody on that ceiling config. I'm not 100% certain, but it sounds like what is referred to as a triple-leaf - which is actually worse than not having that finished middle layer at all. In other words, don't finish the ceiling before you put up the RSIC and double drywall. I did my ceiling with a 1/2" first layer, and a 5/8" on the second layer.

The HVAC run through the HT ceiling can be boxed in before ceiling is installed for some additional isolation, I think.

QuietRock... I think the prevailing thought on it at AVS is that for comparable money, you could actually go to triple layer drywall and smoke the QuietRock in performance. Double drywall and Green Glue is superior for bang for buck though, I think. Again, for HT isolation, mass - and only mass - is the name of the game. Different story for shared walls in multi-use multi-unit dwellings, though. In that case, where labor costs are critical due to scale and modest performance focused in the voice range is adequate, something like Quiet Rock may make more sense than double drywall and Green Glue.

Again, check this out with somebody, but I think I remember reading that good old fiberglass bat insulation is better for isolation in joist cavities than is closed-cell foam. The foam actually transfers vibration better than does the bat.

The bathroom floor... You can use Integrity Gasket between the framing and underlayment, then Green Glue between the underlayment and sub-floor. Should make for a VERY quiet floor.

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ronholm



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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
You might want to check with somebody on that ceiling config. I'm not 100% certain, but it sounds like what is referred to as a triple-leaf - which is actually worse than not having that finished middle layer at all. In other words, don't finish the ceiling before you put up the RSIC and double drywall. I did my ceiling with a 1/2" first layer, and a 5/8" on the second layer.


That is interesting I will definitely check into that... I would think the "mass" idea would apply and the more crap I can stuff up there the better off it would be... and with the air gap b/t the layers... I planed on insulating b/t the "ceilings' also... But I dunno... I'll bet there is some fucntion of the distance of the air gap that my cause problems... but?>>>>
Quote:

The HVAC run through the HT ceiling can be boxed in before ceiling is installed for some additional isolation, I think.


It is in a "joist cavity" but it is still there... And I just don't have any way to put it anywhere else... Since it isn't connected to anything in the HT I wouldn't think that this would be a huge concern in the greater plan... but????
Quote:

QuietRock... I think the prevailing thought on it at AVS is that for comparable money, you could actually go to triple layer drywall and smoke the QuietRock in performance. Double drywall and Green Glue is superior for bang for buck though, I think. Again, for HT isolation, mass - and only mass - is the name of the game. Different story for shared walls in multi-use multi-unit dwellings, though. In that case, where labor costs are critical due to scale and modest performance focused in the voice range is adequate, something like Quiet Rock may make more sense than double drywall and Green Glue.



All of those cost numbers seem to forget that I am paying somebody labor to install... I think I am going to give the quiet rock a test next week b/t the apartment and the daughters bedroom... Worse case I have to add another layer of GG and rock...
Quote:

Again, check this out with somebody, but I think I remember reading that good old fiberglass bat insulation is better for isolation in joist cavities than is closed-cell foam. The foam actually transfers vibration better than does the bat.


My personal un scientific experience seems to lean towards the foam... Some foams are way better than others though... and i don't have open access to the floor system ... so...


Quote:

The bathroom floor... You can use Integrity Gasket between the framing and underlayment, then Green Glue between the underlayment and sub-floor. Should make for a VERY quiet floor.

SC


Th sub floor is already glued down... I found it that way.. And it was such a PITA to getup where I need to get the plumbing done that I just left most of it... I guess I could have cut it up but I didn't want to damage the ceiling below... It has a very $$$$ Fuax paint job..

I may grab a bunch of GG and run with a couple underlayment layers... I figure some Integrity gasket under the shower pan and toilet will go a long ways also... Now if I could just keep the pipes in the wall/floor quiet... Geez I wish I coulda stuffed cast iron in there...

LOL....

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably not doable but a guy I use to work with isolated his room from the rest of the house using sand between the walls.

I sugested it but I was only joking. Aparently it was his parent's place and didn't want to disturb them while, entertaining his GF.

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ronholm wrote:
All of those cost numbers seem to forget that I am paying somebody labor to install... I think I am going to give the quiet rock a test next week b/t the apartment and the daughters bedroom... Worse case I have to add another layer of GG and rock...

The comparisons I've seen that show DD/GG with comparable to QuietRock do include labor! How much do you pay your rockers??!?! Wink

Check this out:
http://www.greengluecompany.com/greenGlue-vs-FactoryDampedPanels.php


Look at the performance difference in the LFE range - you're talking 5+ dB better isolation with the DD/GG combo compared to the 'factory-damped drywall' - AKA QR525. These are real laboratory tests that test broadband isolation characteristics. Not just an STC rating, which has little meaning in products for HT.

Basically, if you're doing a party-wall or a bathroom and you need to knock it out fast so the homeowner can't hear the mother-in-law fart in the bathroom, the QR is a good solution. On the other hand, if want maximum performance - especially in the bass frequencies - there's no comparison.

A sheet of QR525 is 2.7 lbs/sqft. Two typical sheets of 5/8" gyp is going to be in the 5 lbs/sqft ballpark. Mass, baby. Oh, and don't forget how much more your material waste costs with the QR.

ronholm wrote:
The sub floor is already glued down... I found it that way.. And it was such a PITA to getup where I need to get the plumbing done that I just left most of it... I guess I could have cut it up but I didn't want to damage the ceiling below... It has a very $$$$ Fuax paint job..

Oh, this is EXISTING construction! Ooops. Never mind. Wink

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
bass. bass mass mass bass. bass mass bass. bass.


This is what I saw when I read that post.

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile

2-track mind? 2hz? Only stereo?

Wait, looks like you're twice as concerned with bass as you are about mass. At least you have your priorities straight.

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