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Shadow details restored - Thank you Crescendo !!
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Rdean



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 258



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Oz,

I'd like to see these pics but the links are dead. Can you repost?
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rdean wrote:
Oz,

I'd like to see these pics but the links are dead. Can you repost?


The pictures are in the posts. I see them.

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Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Rdean



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 258



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, my work is filtering that domain. Nevermind.
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
As evidenced by his screenshots, he was severely crushing black before the RTC2200. The difference in screenshots between a properly calibrated CRT PJ and one with the RTC2200 should be:
1) A small amount of extra low level details visible
2) black should be blacker (O IRE will have a lower light level)

These are the advantages of the RTC2200. If you are crushing from 5 or 6 IRE down, your PJ is simply not calibrated correctly.

Also, OP's post with the hooded man shows that post-RTC2200 the calibration is not correct. The RTC2200 shot is very washed out, therefore he has Kim's gamma boost turned too high.


Yes, as already stated, my system is not calibrated (yet (it will be soon)). I did put a disclaimer in my original post, and specifically requested NOT to be told gamma was too high Laughing . It wasnt my intention to show "correct" images. I simply wanted to show the detail that can be found in the shadows with a gamma boost.

I dont get crushed blacks this bad using my HTPC (with no RTC2200 in the chain). I believe the output of the Toshiba HDDVD player is contributing alot to the problem.

A calibration will be happening soon, and I expect the boost will be dialled back somewhat in the process.
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Tom.W



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6637



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kim could you take some pictures comparing the input versus output curves from a scope at various gamma settings ?

Here is tse's curve using his design but it is also fixed at only one curve...



Tse's curve.jpg
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Tse's curve.jpg


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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OzMillsy wrote:
I simply wanted to show the detail that can be found in the shadows with a gamma boost.


But this is inaccurate. I think you don't understand gamma boost. It is not:
No gamma boost = no shadow details
gamma boost = shadow details

Which is what you seem to think. Those details can be seen without gamma boost--simply turn up your brightness.

OzMillsy wrote:
I dont get crushed blacks this bad using my HTPC (with no RTC2200 in the chain). I believe the output of the Toshiba HDDVD player is contributing alot to the problem.


My blacks are not crushed that bad out of the Toshiba HD DVD player. Yes, I know it has a problem with DVI displays, but it is not THAT bad.

What PJ are you using?

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Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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beun



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 676



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

The simulated curve in in the manual, I will see if I can make some pictures this weekend.

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ESL-0.5 Full Range Electrostatic Loudspeakers | RTC2200 Component to VGA Converter with Gamma Boost
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beun wrote:
Tom,

The simulated curve in in the manual, I will see if I can make some pictures this weekend.


Link to manual:
http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/RTC2200_manual.pdf

[Added by Kal]
Link to product page:
http://www.curtpalme.com/RTC2200.shtm

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Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
OzMillsy wrote:
I simply wanted to show the detail that can be found in the shadows with a gamma boost.


But this is inaccurate. I think you don't understand gamma boost. It is not:
No gamma boost = no shadow details
gamma boost = shadow details

Which is what you seem to think. Those details can be seen without gamma boost--simply turn up your brightness.

[groan] !?!?! Brightness sets blacks, contrast sets whites, gamma can help adjust the area in between. Yes, gamma affects the whole grey scale, not just blacks. Dave, where do you get off exactly?

Turning the brightness up, made blacks look grey. Who wants to do that on a CRT?!?

Quote:
What PJ are you using?


Please refer to the initial post.

Gamma adjustment is a very nice feature to have an any system. I will agree with you that, the improvements gamma makes shouldnt be so different (all things being equal). But there are situations where a colorimeter and calibrator are not easily accessible (or affordable) for some.

The photos here are extremes, too low, too high. [shrugs] I clearly stated up front that the system is not calibrated, and needs further work. But the photos can be used to try and gauge where your systems sits (somewhere in between one would hope). The RTC2200 can help in a situation where your system is suffering and needs some adjustment in the midrange, and a ground up calibration is not immediately available.

It certainly helped me. Hats off to Crescendo for a good product.
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Tom.W



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6637



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys,
hadn't seen the new manual. Nice job Kim !
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dropzone7



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OzMillsy wrote:

Dave, where do you get off exactly?





That's just Dave. Apparently a really smart guy that has no problem voicing his opinion. Very helpful 99% of the time. Just cut away the sarcasm and condescending tones and you get to the meat of what he is saying. He rubs most everybody the wrong way at some point but he makes a very compelling argument for most anything when he decides to chime in.

Wink

He almost made me cry a few times... Crying or Very sad Well, not really. Laughing
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dropzone7 wrote:
OzMillsy wrote:

Dave, where do you get off exactly?





That's just Dave. Apparently a really smart guy that has no problem voicing his opinion. Very helpful 99% of the time. Just cut away the sarcasm and condescending tones and you get to the meat of what he is saying. He rubs most everybody the wrong way at some point but he makes a very compelling argument for most anything when he decides to chime in.

Wink

He almost made me cry a few times... Crying or Very sad Well, not really. Laughing


Believe it or not, the local guys think I'm nice in person. Very Happy

I don't see it as sarcastic or condescending (most of the time Smile). I'm just direct. I'm constantly amazed by the thin skin of folks that post. One would see exchanges like this any any debate or journal of ideas.

And Oz, generally I get off at my house, but I've been known to dabble in the heady rush of public places. Smile

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Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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cbe317



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Thunderbolt, GA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
And Oz, generally I get off at my house, but I've been known to dabble in the heady rush of public places. Smile



LOL!!!! Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

Dave, you crack me up.

Good to see the Dave everyone loves back in the saddle! Thumbs Up
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
I don't see it as sarcastic or condescending (most of the time Smile). I'm just direct. I'm constantly amazed by the thin skin of folks that post. One would see exchanges like this any any debate or journal of ideas.

And Oz, generally I get off at my house, but I've been known to dabble in the heady rush of public places. Smile

Too much info!! Wink

I do enjoy debate and exchanges, particularly when they are informed discussions. I dont generally have a thin skin, what got my nose out of joint, is you appear to have not bothered to read the information already contained in my posts. Ya looked at the photos, and got all high and mighty. Direct? Yes, you directly jumped to the wrong conclusion, due to overlooking the statements already made, which put everything into context.

Hell, my final photos with the closeup of the face even admitted that the change in skintones indicated I may have gone too far with gamma. We can clearly see the skin colour is washed out.

For those who havent played with gamma before, it's very interesting for them to see the change though, dont you think? That is the purpose of the photos here (not correctness).
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Gino



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:

But this is inaccurate. I think you don't understand gamma boost. It is not:
No gamma boost = no shadow details
gamma boost = shadow details

Which is what you seem to think. Those details can be seen without gamma boost--simply turn up your brightness.

That's not entirely true Dave. If he was having colourspace/RGB output level inconsistencies, he'd have this problem. ie. if PC level output content was RGB 0-255, and you were setup for RGB 16-235, wouldn't this mean that all the picture information in the 0-15 range would be lost? ie. black crush? No amount of brightness increase would get that information back. (same would be true of white crush for 236-255 range)

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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5631
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to make the same comments as Dave, because I didn't read the original post.Smile I understand where Dave is coming from as you are not showing the recommended amount of boost and some might think boost is more harmful than helpful. In the end, gamma boost is a user preference. It is better to have the option than to not have it.
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beun



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 676



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Below some scope foto's I made:

These video signals were generated using a PC for the ramp and a TCP2200 to generate component from the PC's VGA output.

Top trace G output, bottom trace Y input



The same traces but now overlaid with the same amplitude

[/img]

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ESL-0.5 Full Range Electrostatic Loudspeakers | RTC2200 Component to VGA Converter with Gamma Boost
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OzMillsy



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
I was going to make the same comments as Dave, because I didn't read the original post.Smile I understand where Dave is coming from as you are not showing the recommended amount of boost and some might think boost is more harmful than helpful. In the end, gamma boost is a user preference. It is better to have the option than to not have it.

Cheers Spanky. I have a calibration coming up, which I am hanging out for. It's been a long time coming. I hate to think what he's going to say when he gets here Laughing . In the meantime, I continue to play with my DVE HD-DVD pluge patterns and other calibration screens, trying to get a happy medium that gives me a decent image. I dialled gamma back abit, played with brightness aswell. I watched Bladerunner hddvd last night, and it was looking very watchable to me. It's a dark movie with lots of shadows, but it looked damn fine. Thumbs Up It'll be even better after the calibration I'm sure. Very Happy
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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5631
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The easiest way is to use a gray scale pattern. As long as you can just delineate between each bar, you should be ok. After doing a lot of experimenting with my computer and Nvidia card, I have found that I prefer a little more boost. Of course, my monitor may not be that great. I use the Sony that a lot of people were masterbating on. I still prefer my old Nokia, but unfortunately it broke.
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paw



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kim & Tom

How does the tse curve and RTC2200 curve compare? I don't understand the scope displays. I do see that the RTC2200 curve is over 7 segments. Where the tse curve is over 5 segments. The tse curve seems fatter or taller and the hump seems further up the curve.

I guess my real question is how does the tse gamma correction compare to the RTC2200 gamma correction? I understand that the RTC2200 correction is variable.

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