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Arcsoft TotalMedia Theater is released!
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MikeEby



Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5236
Location: Osceola, Indiana


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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lyd wrote:

I see the cursor appear at each chapter change. Sometimes that corresponds with a fadeout... sure that's not what you're seeing?
I just move it off screen.
lyd


Yep...that’s what I see. I do move it off the screen but sometimes I forget. Most other DVD players just hide the cursor after it’s dormant for a few seconds or until the user moves the mouse again. Why does it need to come on at chapter changes?

fireanimal wrote:
I might take some heat over this, but I have never had a problem with Microsoft, except for Windows ME.


I’m with you fireanimal. There is no possible way ANY software company can write bug free software the day it is released. A modern OS is just way to complex with the vast arrays of hardware and software in the world. M$ does a pretty good job of delivering a reasonably quality product under those conditions. Would I put Vista running mission critical application the day it came out, NO WAY! But we are now almost a year into the release and I feel it has become a very stable product.

Win2K Pro was not really a very good platform for multi-media early in its life. I don’t think it had support for Direct X initially, so looking back about all we had was 98 or ME. Actually the late Cliff Watson from AVS/Digital Connection was a big fan of Windows ME for HTPC’s, it took some time before he fully embraced an NT based OS for the HTPC. Window ME was kind of a migratory OS to shed once and for all the DOS roots of Win9X and was not well supported and had a very short life cycle, also was very over shadowed by the far more robust Windows 2000 Pro and XP kenel.

In regards to other operating systems, I have an older table lamp Mac, still running OSX Panther & apparently there are still issues with it because I get probably 60 MB per month in updates.

I recently began having an interest in Linux because my job may require knowledge and I think there could someday be real potential for HTPC’s running it, so I down loaded the latest build of Suse. The install went very smooth and clean however and at the end of the installation it took about 25 minutes to download & install all the updates, so it must be a work in process also. BTW the user interface of Linux KDE desktop to me looks very dated, sort of a Win2K look, not anywhere close to the polish of Windows Vista or OSX Leopard UI.

Cyberlink has kind of a monopoly right now for Bluray and HD-DVD until something better comes along. I hope Arcsoft or Intervideo does get their act together because a single source is not good. Perhaps if the Arcsoft codex was stable Andrew at Theatertek could make it viable player option, to me that would be ideal.

One thing I have found from developing software over the last quarter century is software is never done! There are always cool new features to add or obscure bugs to fix.

Mike

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Last edited by MikeEby on Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeEby wrote:


One thing I have found from developing software over the last quarter century is software is never done! There are always cool new features to add or obscure bugs to fix.

Mike


I agree with this. I just wish some companies would test their stuff more throughly before releasing it. I've updated graphics drivers to play new games and had it break the old ones making them unplayable. That's just soooo anyoying.

I'm wondering if, by the list of stuff not working, Arcsoft is just releasing a beta?

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MikeEby



Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:

I'm wondering if, by the list of stuff not working, Arcsoft is just releasing a beta?


I hope your right. Has anyone tried an SD-DVD yet? Guess I could get off my butt and try it. Smile

AnalogRocks wrote:

I've updated graphics drivers to play new games and had it break the old ones making them unplayable. That's just soooo anyoying.
I'm wondering if, by the list of stuff not working, Arcsoft is just releasing a beta?


Just buy a Mac...they just work....so the commercials say. Smile

I found it funny to run the latest release of Photoshop CS3 on a Mac required the user to upgrade the OS from Panther to Tiger. Could you imaging the outcry if XP users were forced to upgrade to Vista to run one application? Redmond would be on fire!


Mike

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lyd



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeEby wrote:
Could you imaging the outcry if XP users were forced to upgrade to Vista to run one application? Redmond would be on fire!


Are you kidding?

lyd

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lyd wrote:
MikeEby wrote:
Could you imaging the outcry if XP users were forced to upgrade to Vista to run one application? Redmond would be on fire!


Are you kidding?

lyd


Well there IS directX 10. It won't play on XP. Even though all the hardware is in place. A 19 year old hacker tried to make it go but no luck so far so he released his work under the GNU public license.

Hopefully a hacker from helsinki will happen along to help with hashing out this hopeless trash.

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MikeEby



Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, that is interesting about DX10, I feel your pain but it might just be if you want to run games and alike that only support Direct X 10 then Vista might be your only choice. The beef should be with the software vendors that are only supporting DX10 but keep in mind XP has been available to OEM and retail customers since October 2001 that means the code goes back to the WMD driver model of Windows 98 that was released in late 1997. A lot has changed since then dual processors were only used in high end servers and workstations, 128 Mb ram was the norm if not excessive, still CPU clocks were still in the Mhz, Graphics Processor Units (GPU) were stone age by the standards of today & data bus speeds were a fraction of what they are now.

Since you brought up the issue I thought I would do a little research in determining some of the differences between DX9c and DX10. After reading a few articles I find the differences are extensive. There are major changes that go down to the core driver level. Vista uses a driver model called with no surprise “Windows Vista Display Driver Model” (WDDM).
Below is a link to a M$ white paper explaining some of the differences between XP and Vista graphics API. Warning these are a little geeky.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb173477(VS.85).aspx

The new model puts much more demand on the GPU than ever before even running tradition business desktop applications. Direct3D 10 is an important part of DX10 & the new Vista GUI skin “Areo Glass” is an example. I notice this after installing Vista on some low end PCs they did not have the AG skin. This is because the GPU does not have the guts to support the slick interface.

Below is a copy and paste of part of an article written in 2005 about Direct3D10 in DX10 and WDDM. These are not my own words.

I suggest you read the entire article and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/d3d10overview/

The GPU is to be viewed as a shared resource in the system with multiple applications using and relying upon it – making stability a much more important factor. It's also worth noting that as GPU's become more powerful it is necessary to have a clean and efficient path for utilizing them. VDDM moves much more of the command scheduling and translation into 'user mode' and keeps only the essential parts in 'kernel mode' – such that if the hardware or driver crashes it's possible for the system to effectively restart the driver/hardware and avoid taking the whole system down.

Sharing the GPU is a big part of VDDM; to the extent that the video memory will be virtualized by the operating system. This will in turn allow for resource sharing across threads, which could become an important feature with the recent turn towards multi-programming. Another bonus of the GPU becoming a more central resource to the system is that the "lost device" scenario is gone – so applications no longer need to worry about handling it. However, there is a "device removed" state – which exists for the increasing number of laptops that come with docking stations.

Direct3D 10 also introduces the DirectX Graphics Infrastructure (DXGI) – a common foundation for this new release as well as any subsequent versions (e.g. Direct3D 10.1, 10.2, 11, 12 etc…). Much of the basic low-level resources and operations stay constant and common across most versions of Direct3D such that they've now been isolated from the core runtime. The benefit being that there is a stable and consistent foundation for the API to be based upon, and for application developers it should allow different API's (e.g. D3D10 and D3D11) to share resources.


Microsoft is a profit driven company, there is no doubt about that but after doing some quick research I feel that DX10 is more revolutionary then evolutionary because it cuts the ties to the previous versions display model that had limitations and there are good reasons for the changes. DX10 also sets new standards for future game development so perhaps this will be around for few years.

I have only studied some of the differences in the Direct3D portion of DX10 next I will look at direct show and try to understand why my Vista HTPC running seems very stable compared to the same HTPC running XP.

Perhaps the hacker will be successful in hacking XP to work with DX10 more power to him. But if they are actually including Vista code in XP and personally I see no advantage there. Why not just get Vista.

Mike

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a DRM thing. Plus I have stuff that won't play nice with Vista. When I design a HTPC I make sure all the componets have drivers for the same operating system. If that was Win98 so be it. In this case everything worked on WinXP Pro so that's what I bought.

Windows is still a payne in the azz though.

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lyd



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeEby wrote:
Could you imaging the outcry if XP users were forced to upgrade to Vista to run one application? Redmond would be on fire!


MikeEby wrote:
Why not just get Vista.


Umm...


lyd

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fireanimal



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 231
Location: Stayner, ON


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I will stay with Powerdvd unless Arcsoft fixes the sound problems. With Powerdvd I can use analog out from my Soundcard, and every format works now, except for DTS-HD Lossless. I couldn't imagine being forced to send a PCM 7.1 track into SPDIF connection, after hearing it in full glory.

IMHO the biggest upgrade with blu-ray and hd-dvd is the audio, you can upscale video to look almost as good, but there is nothing you can do about the audio, and going from 600 kbs to 7 mbps, is a very large jump in sound quality and dynamic range of the movies.

lyd wrote:
fireanimal wrote:
Weird....Is it decoding in full 7.1 DTS-HD lossless?? That was the main thing I was wondering.


lyd wrote:
fireanimal wrote:
DTS-HD Demo Disc
Pans Labyrinth

Sorry gapped on the third.


I just popped in Pan's Labyrinth. No problems at all playing it with TMT on my system.

lyd


Well, none of the HD formats are decoding properly for me with this player. I get the front three channels and no surround when I use analog output for TrueHD, LPCM or DTS-HD.

I do, however, get 5.1 (or maybe 6.1 -- I have 6 speakers and they all make noise, but I can never tell when there is really a 6th channel and when it is my processor doing stuff) from a DTS-HD track downsampled (or is that what the core audio thing is?) and output over spdif with TMT. Not so for TrueHD, unfortunately, with either player.

lyd
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fireanimal



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 231
Location: Stayner, ON


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double Post..Sorry

Last edited by fireanimal on Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MikeEby



Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5236
Location: Osceola, Indiana


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lyd wrote:
MikeEby wrote:
Could you imaging the outcry if XP users were forced to upgrade to Vista to run one application? Redmond would be on fire!


MikeEby wrote:
Why not just get Vista.


Umm...


lyd


LOL... I was a little dramatic on that statement.

The two graphics below from the M$ article linked above do good job of summing up the differences between the XP and Vista. From an ISV (independent software vendor) point of view the differences are substantial.

XP at the top.



And now Vista.


Note with XP, there are two different paths to access the APIs. It forced the ISV to combine calls to both GDI32 and the DirectX runtime this was very complex from the view of the developer. Now with Vista model accessing the higher level APIs are much easier because everything is managed by the DirectX runtime.

The closest analogy I could think of would be the fuel delivery system in a car. We first had carburetors that consisted of system of complex mechanical components. Float, jets, throttle butterfly etc. that combined all together worked well but was not very efficient for performance, economy and exhaust emissions. Then along came electronic fuel injection, first throttle body then port. From the mechanical point of view the EFI systems are much less complex and yield much better economy and emissions, performance is debatably. The two systems could NOT co-exist together in the same car but I don’t remember anyone complaining to GM because they would not retrofit their 1980 Chevette with EFI. Why should software be any different?

Mike

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Last edited by MikeEby on Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:59 am; edited 4 times in total
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fireanimal



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Vista is far superior OS compared to XP, the developers, and hardware companies are the ones that are slow coming out of the gate, but if I remember right it was the same thing when XP was launched. I am no MS fanboy, but I do not understand peoples dislike for Microsoft, and Vista.....

After running Vista since RC1, I would not switch back to XP. The only thing that is flawed with Vista is that there are too many versions, but I think that was a marketing dept. decision. Two versions would be sufficent.
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MikeEby



Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5236
Location: Osceola, Indiana


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fireanimal wrote:
The only thing that is flawed with Vista is that there are too many versions, but I think that was a marketing dept. decision. Two versions would be sufficent.


This is very true! Then add to the fact it is also available in 32 and 64 bit versions makes it even a bigger mess. Premium and Ultra versions are just a way of getting into people’s shorts a little more. It would be interesting to try a head to head comparison between the versions playing 3D game and multi-media applications just to see how each perform.

I don’t really see much value in Media Center for my use the interface is nice but I do very little time shifting. I did spring for the Ultra versions just because I didn’t want to take the chance of it not working for multi-media and at some point I may want setup a Windows Network in my house only Business and Ultra can join a domain.

Because software is a virtual product for some reason people don't look at it the same way as hardware, something they can hold in their hand, the cost of developing virtual products can be just as high as a piece of hardware. When you buy say new video card the actual cost of the hardware is small, what you are paying for is the engineering that went into making the product. With software it is just the engineering somehow people just don’t understand that.


Mike

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fireanimal



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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I am concerned Media Center is a complete waste until proper Cable Card support is released, and the interface can be used as PVR for Cable or Sattelite programing, that is when MCE will really take off. The interface is nice, but I launch everything from Windows Explorer, so the need is not there yet.

MS is on the right track with MCE, and using the 360 as an extender. It will be nice the day that you have a central PC with 4 tuner cards in it, and can watch live or PVR through the 360/MCE Extender anywhere in the house, maybe even a 2000 disc jukebox that can be accessed as well, then nobody would be ripping movies or music to their Hard Drives, and all this DRM crap can be thrown out the widow.

Overall MS has done a great job intergrating PC's into everyday lifestyle, they have went from a OS company, to a complete home entertainment supplier in less than 10 years.
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fireanimal wrote:
As far as I am concerned Media Center is a complete waste until proper Cable Card support is released, and the interface can be used as PVR for Cable or Sattelite programing, that is when MCE will really take off. The interface is nice, but I launch everything from Windows Explorer, so the need is not there yet.

MS is on the right track with MCE, and using the 360 as an extender. It will be nice the day that you have a central PC with 4 tuner cards in it, and can watch live or PVR through the 360/MCE Extender anywhere in the house, maybe even a 2000 disc jukebox that can be accessed as well, then nobody would be ripping movies or music to their Hard Drives, and all this DRM crap can be thrown out the widow.

Overall MS has done a great job intergrating PC's into everyday lifestyle, they have went from a OS company, to a complete home entertainment supplier in less than 10 years.


Like I said back in 1997. Microsoft would be happy if every DVD player was running Windows.

BTW my first DVD player ran Win95 on an AMD 200/32megs ram had a hardware decoder and a remote control. You never needed to see the Win95 desktop. All you had to do was turn the power on, pop a disk in and let it load.

That's what I miss with all my later HTPC's

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MikeEby



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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy Crap!!!

Back on topic here guys...sorry!
I just downloaded a copy TM Theater from Arksoft's website and just for shits and grins I thought I would first try it on my notebook. It’s a decent little IBM Lenova T60 with a T7200 2.00 GHz Core 2 Duo processor with 2GB of DDR2 memory, its tricked out a little bit with a 7200 RPM 160 GB with 16 MB cache. Video is an ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 on 15” LCD @ 1680 x 1050 running Vista Business 32bit.

I had my old Xbox HD-DVD drive laying around so plugged it into the USB port. Vista went out somewhere and downloaded a driver for the drive it then asked me to reboot so I did. Then installed Arcsoft TM Theater trial, install went fine no issues. Popped in King Kong, a message came up telling me the menus are disabled with for use with the mouse, Ok…I can deal with that. Started playing the disk… The Universal globe appeared nice and smooth HD-DVD logos and trailers appeared smooth. HD-DVD menus look good and function well. At this point my interest is starting to peak. Selected play from the menu. I then watched about the first 5 minutes King Kong…which I have probably seen about a thousand times by now, so far perfect, not skip or a shudder. OK…now it’s time to break it, went right for the navigation slider bar across the bottom I slid the bar about ľ to the end of the disk it jump to chapter fine. I slid the bar from one end to the other, it jumped perfectly to the point where I told it to go and very quickly…Ok let’s try chapter select: the toolbar across the bottom has a cool button that makes the HD-DVD menu appear instantly. The menu popped out used the keyboard to select a chapter, I selected several chapters and it performed absolutely perfect. I only have a few HD-DVD’s and my copy of MI3 was loaned out to a friend so about the only other disk I had was “Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas” threw it in the Xbox drive and the same thing, I cannot make the thing crash, sputter or spit, it’s as stable as any DVD setup box I have ever used and about 1000 times faster the my Gen 1 Toshiba HD-DVD player.

Now the real question, how will it work with Blu-ray. Well tune in a little bit later this evening and I will let you know.
Mike

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MikeEby



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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very bad results!

After the excitement I had with Arcsoft on my notebook I was hyped up. Well not anymore! On my HTPC the thing is a POS, even with HD-DVD’s. Very image choppy on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.
Now the real question, why did it work so well on my notebook?

1. The notebook was virgin. It had no DVD player software ever installed before Arcsoft.
2. Arcsoft doesn’t play well with the LG combo drive.
3. Arcsoft doesn’t play well with the Realtek onboard sound card.
4. Arcsoft doesn’t like my Powerstrip custom timings.

Any other ideas?

I have a new Asus Maximus Formula motherboard, Q6600 CPU & Asus-ATI 3850-512DDR on order, that will be in Friday, I plan wiping out and starting from scratch my HTPC anyway over the weekend, so I will probably start with loading Arcsoft on a clean box just to see how it performs. After seeing how well it worked on the notebook I think this player has some real possibilities, it’s just matter of finding the right combination that will allow it work well.

You guys have sparked my curiosity on gaming hens the ATI 3850. The Asus card comes with some bundled software called “Company of Heroes-Opposing Fronts” is it any good?

Will see how goes I haven’t played a video game in probably 15-20 years…Have they changed much from Pac-man?

Mike

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeEby wrote:

You guys have sparked my curiosity on gaming hens the ATI 3850. The Asus card comes with some bundled software called “Company of Heroes-Opposing Fronts” is it any good?

Will see how goes I haven’t played a video game in probably 15-20 years…Have they changed much from Pac-man?

Mike


No not much at all.

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MikeEby



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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:


No not much at all.


Seems like a lot of trouble and expense, but what the hell!.

Mike

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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, I think you realize AR was being sarcastic... but, seriously - if you haven't played games for a long time, the new stuff will blow your mind. Some of these newer first person shooter war games are so realistic, it's unbelievable. The graphics are just jaw-dropping. I'm a console guy myself...On the big screen with the lights off and sound cranked, feet up in my recliner, stuff like Halo 3 and Call of Duty is just freaky. Amazing surround effects, super-immersive gorgeous graphics. I haven't seen Company of Heroes, but it looks pretty good.

I also play a racing game on the 360 called Forza Motorsports. Crank the sound up, pick out a Z06 or a Ferrari, and hammer around the Nuhrburgring or Road Atlanta at 195MPH. It's truly awesome. I race with a buddy of mine on Live whenever we have the time - it's a riot.

SC
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