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Aging speaker components replacement

 
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JustGreg




Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Aging speaker components replacement Reply with quote


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Has anybody ever rebuilt or modernized their speakers?

I've got a pair of Yamaha towers circa 1985 that are showing their age. eg, the woof's are boomy, the midrange is muddy, and I don't recall the dome tweeters sounding so subdued.

Now granted, my hearing was a whole lot better 22 years ago, but I think it's time to do something about this. I've found myself going from obsessing about picture quality during a movie to muttering WTF about audio quality. Not having the $$ to replace them with high end replacements, I'm entertaining the idea of just rebuilding. I'd like to hang onto these cabinets for sentimental reasons (my son was born the year I got them).


So I'm fishing for feedback on the practicality of this project. Also, I'm sure the crossovers are tired and could stand an upgrade with newer components. I've seen alot of 3 way crossovers already built but I don't really want a one size fits all solution. Which leads to another problem for me...tuning a crossover based on the drivers to work in harmony with the cabinets. I once opened my big mouth in a thread about a speaker is a speaker is a speaker. After researching speaker building for the last 3 months, I've grabbed balls and manned up and eaten those words. Embarassed

Any ideas? (besides refinancing my house for Logans, or the like)

Greg

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Greg

"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a pair of Logans I'd sell..Wink

Unless the foam surrounds are gone on the woofers, I don't buy your other claims of low high end and muddy mids. I used to own a repair shop where we reconed a lot of speakers and did repairs, and generally speaking, other than the foam rot, speakers don't degrade over time. (flame suit on!).

As long as you haven't overdriven them so that speakers and crossovers aren't damaged,your Yamis should sound very close to they did when they were new.

AS for replacing drivers in the cabinets, I don't recommend it. You'd be mixing and matching components, cabinet volume and speaker efficiencies, and while you can do it, I think you'll end up with a mess.
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CRT_Ben




Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he chooses his components carefully, I doubt he'd end up with a mess, especially if he chooses components from the same line (I'm a huge fan of the Dayton Classic and Reference lines). Eventually I'm going to tackle building a set of 5 (or 7??) matched speakers for surround sound use, and I'm probably going to go with a 3-way design using various pieces from the Dayton Reference line.

About a year ago, silly me was using my Wharfedale Emerald 97's as studio monitors and got them caught up in a nasty feedback loop with my condenser mic that left one of the tweeters blown. I replaced both with Vifa silk domes ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-526 ) and my admittedly non-audiofool ears can't really tell the difference Embarassed The midrange might be harder to mix/match components and come away successfully, though.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there's that point of view..Wink

Speakers are so damn subjective anyways, so yeah, you could throw speakers together and they could sound great. I guess I was more questioning the overall degradation of all of the drivers.
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JustGreg




Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
Well there's that point of view..Wink

Speakers are so damn subjective anyways, so yeah, you could throw speakers together and they could sound great. I guess I was more questioning the overall degradation of all of the drivers.

And that is exactly what I was hoping to get across and obviously failed miserably at Curt. It just seems to me that lets say I put in a CD of Boston Pops type music. I just don't hear the crash of symbols, or the high frequency slide of a guitarists fingers over the strings on an unplugged performance like I used to. Granted, there are alot of variables involved like my receiver, CD/DVD player, cables, etc.

I think as a test I'll put the original configuration of CD player and receiver back together and see if it makes a difference. As far as the foams go, they're very rigid but I don't see any rot. Would I see actual rot or is that a term used loosely to describe aged and degraded flexibility?

I'm just 'discovering' the audio aspect of owning an HT and realize my ig-nance in alot of areas and the straight up learning curve so I thank for your patience.

Greg

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Greg

"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, my reasoning for 'speakers don't age' is:"

a) I've never heard that happening before
b) you have two speakers. I can't see speakers aging identically if there were such a thing.

Now, some speakers have internal protection. If you had one really good party, then you might have blown something in the crossover in each speaker.

Having said all that, I bought a pair of speakers recently that indeed sound dull, even though both tweeters are working. I'm checking those this week. I might change my mind on my post.

To check the foam, b ounce a pencil eraser (on the end of the pencil) off the foam from about 6". If the foam is rotten, the eraser will go through the foam. Good foam will bounce the eraser off it with ease.

Soft foam will indeed change your bass response. Foam rots due to ultraviolet light and pollution breaking down the foam.

Here's a good pix of typical foam rot:

http://cgi.ebay.com/AR3-CS-DUAL-CONE-DRIVER-SPEAKER-AS-IS_W0QQitemZ220188907444QQihZ012QQcategoryZ50597QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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CRT_Ben




Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
I guess I was more questioning the overall degradation of all of the drivers.


Agreed, assuming the speakers are in good physical shape they probably sound similar to when they were new(er)...(post break-in).

As for component replacement, if he chooses wisely, it's really not any different than starting from scratch and designing everything - just now, he's got premade cabs already, and has to make speaker/crossover choices based on that rather than designing everything together. There are many crossover designs available on the web that shouldn't be hard to fabricate, and choosing x-over points can be a well educated guess after reviewing response graphs from the manufacturer and data from modeling programs like winISD.

I'm not trying to say that quality speaker design is easy, but give it a try! If you're talking about two speakers here, it's probably no more than $2-300 for quality Dayton, Vifa, Hi-Vi, etc. components that when properly utilized in well designed cabs, can provide performance on par with four figure speaker pairs.
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JustGreg




Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaaaaaaaaaaahh! lol No...nothing that looks like that at all. They have been cranked once or twice. Embarassed

Everything is working in them so I think my next step will be to take them apart. They've traveled many a mile when I worked all over the country years ago. I wouldn't be surprised to see the loose accoustic fill piled up in the bottom of the cabs. I had them on a flatbed trailer along with my Harley and a housefull of crap that I drove from Oregon to New Hampshire. They've seen some potholes that's for sure.

Thanks guys.

Greg

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Greg

"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also wondered about speaker aging. Our living-room system has Hafler amp and preamp and Vandersteen model 1 speakers. I swear it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as it did 20 years ago. I don't know whether that's due to aging speakers, aging caps in the electronics, aging ears, or aging memory. It would be nice to get it sounding good again but I doubt my wife would appreciate me tearing it apart. (Especially since it was hers before we met. Smile)
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jask




Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10164
Location: kamloops BC


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crappy caps, and I have seen some speaker surrounds that had not rotted but seemed to be a lot stiffer than I would have expected (on old drivers)
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