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Replace my M8000 with the RS2?
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trailblazer



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal,QC


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Replace my M8000 with the RS2? Reply with quote


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I have an Electrohome Marquee 8000 displaying a 123 inch 16 by 9 screen.
I am looking to replace it with the new JVC-RS2.
The RS2 has been getting rave reviews.
Any thoughts on why I should not do it?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23750
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the RS2 might look pleasing initially and most likely is a step up from the 8000, your 8000 is probably 13 years old. THe Rs2 will last 5.
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trailblazer



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal,QC


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize the bulb life is only 2000 hrs and needs to be replaced more often.I am willing to pay the small cost of bulb replacement to get a better image and 1080p/24.
The other thing with CRT`s are if they break down you have to find someone qualified to repair them on site.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23750
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I call bull**** on your statement about repairing CRTs. If you want hands off on your CRT, then yes, service can be hard to find. About 60% of my time now is spent walking people through repairing/swapping boards on their defective CRTs. There's hardly ever anything more needed to repair a CRT than a screwdriver and minor reconvergence. Minimal technical skills needed by the end user to tell me where the problem is. (Mind you, occasionally getting the end user to tell me ACCURATELY what the problem with the set is can be a challenge. Mr. Green )

Compare that to the RS2 that has NOTHING user serviceable, and I guarantee you that the first time it fails out of warranty it will be a throwaway unit. I get calls every week now from people asking me to repair digitals because the manufacturer has quoited them some outrageous price to repair their 3-5 year old set.

My money would still be on a mint tubed 9" set, with a chassis that can last 70,000 hours + easily with a user repairable failure once in a blue moon with a repair cost of $150-350 tops.

But frankly, amongst a bunch of CRT owners, you're not going to get a very unbiased response..Very Happy

Still, ask any warranty depot for digital flat screens and projector for stats. The ones I've talked to all say that they repair less than 1% of digital sets of any kind when they are out of warranty.

So if you can justify the cost of an RS2 along with the bulb costs that you usually do not get 2000 hours out of over a 5-ish year period, then go grab one. I have not seen the Rs2 image, but did like the RS1 that I saw in Chicago last summer. To me, the units are ticking time bombs that are ready to be thrown out when they die.
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trailblazer



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal,QC


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate your input and I am aware of your CRT bias, you may have a point on service but how often do these digital projectors break down?
Until the RS2 came on board I was looking into the Marquee 9500, but will it be able to do 1080p/24 pixel for pixel?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23750
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRTs will not do 1080p/24, you'll get nothing but flicker if the set could actually lock to that signal, but it will do a multiuple of 24fps, as in 72fps.

From what I've seen, digitals will last 1500 to 5000 hours chassis lifespan. That doesn't seem to depend on what you spend on the set. It doesn't matter whether it's an $800 Costco special or a $47K (original price) Sony Qualia. Iv'e seen two posts about the Qualia over on avs re breakdowns, and repairs were $1500 to replace the sub power supply in both cases. The owners didn't specify hours on the set, but I believe both were on their original bulbs, so that would indicate under 2000 hours.

Most people I've talked to that end up throwing out their digitals due to high repair costs had the chassis fail between 2-3 bulb lifespans.

One local HT owner spent over 1500 in bulbs for their Panasonic unit, then bought a 5th bulb, only to have the chassis fail within 20 hours after spending the $350 for a bulb. Panasonic's attitude was 'too bad so sad' that they spent money on a bulb, but they of course wouldn't refund the bulb, then proceeded to write off the projector as the LCD panel had failed.

I've checked into the feasibility of getting into digital or flat screen repairs, and it won't ever happen. They are designed to be thrown away.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15868
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're confused about 1080p/24. The 9500 can do the 1920x1080 resolution easily, but no CRT projector can do 24Hz as the refresh rate is too low. It would flicker like crazy.

Please read this thread titled "HT Q&A: What's 1080p/24? Possible on CRT projectors?": http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9947

Long story short: You can take a 1080p/24 signal and you have to increase the refresh rate to at least 48Hz (72Hz is better) before sending it to the CRT projector.

But have you seen a display doing 24Hz vs 60Hz? Are you really bothered by the 3:2 pulldown judder artifacts. This is another one of those things that gets blown out of proportion. Most people don't notice the difference and most still use 60Hz.

I used 72Hz for 6-7 years from an HTPC (72 is 3x24 so no 3:2 pulldown is required). Then I switched to a PS3 doing 60Hz. I don't notice any extra 3:2 pulldown judder now that I'm running 60Hz. When I ran the HTPC I did run 60Hz and 72Hz (71.928Hz to be exact) to see the difference and yes, there's a very VERY subtle difference (to me), but with 99% of movie material you are not going to notice it. You need the exactly right content and need to look for it and know what you're looking for.

Kal

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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fact: Heat destroys electronics. Digital projectors are like arc welders in a little box - so HUGE amounts of heat generated in a tiny area. It's a recipe for failure and non-longevity.

Curt, now would be a good time to talk about how many customer's you've sold CRT's to, who were coming back to CRT from a digital - or three.

SC
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MikeEby



Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5236
Location: Osceola, Indiana


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am curious about the 24fps as to how well it works.

The Blu-ray I use for judging smooth pans is the opening scene in Harry Potter Order of the Phoenix. There is a long slow pan of the city that ends up looking down on the playground. The shot to me looks somewhat soft but on my CRT @ 72 HZ itís nice and smooth, at 60Hz jumpy as hell. Try some scenes with fast action to see if the panel can keep up.

The only thing I would suggest is watch one in person before buying. Reviews and specs don't mean a thing until you see it with your own eyes. Don't just watch it for a few minutes, study the image for a whole movie. I think itís a good idea to lower the audio level; a good audio track will distort your perception of the image being projected. Try to match the ambient light level you have in your theater with ambient light in the room your auditioning the projector, I watch movies in total darkness, except for the projected image Smile, that where you will notice the lack of black levels.

Mike

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trailblazer



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal,QC


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is what I would like to know about the 1080p/24fps?
Has anyone compared an image from both, to actual see the difference?
Can you actually compare the 3:2 pulldown from a CRT to a 1080p/24 form a digital projector?
Would like to know?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people switching to digital only look at the brightness issue but as mike said the trail or comet affect from not being able to keep up with fast moving sceans is what did it for me. I have an 8000 and run 1080p48 and love it. I have to admit before the marquee i had a sony VPL400WHQ digital that did 1025x1920 and had the 3 honeycomb LCD panels for each color. I still have it , but it only had 500 hours on the bulb and lost 50 % of its output and one of the panels began to give a pink hue to the whites. I got it for 3500 back then and had I known about used crt's i would have looked into one. I always thought they were unatainable 40,000 plus high end units. I would keep the marquee and get the digital. at least 3 or 5 years form now when the digital craps out you'll have the 20 year old marquee that will still work like a charm.

Athanasios

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GEBrown



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 729
Location: Denver


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trailblazer wrote:
I realize the bulb life is only 2000 hrs and needs to be replaced more often.I am willing to pay the small cost of bulb replacement to get a better image and 1080p/24.
The other thing with CRT`s are if they break down you have to find someone qualified to repair them on site.


Have you researched "the small cost of bulb replacement"?

Most of the numbers I have seen are not "small".

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seriously doubt any digital projector could do 1080P24. The nature of their beats is to accept a 1080P24 signal and then bring this up to a much high refresh. LCD and LCoS just cannot work properly at that low of a refresh rate. And the only reason why 1080P24 is touted in the first place is because that is how it was decided to be stored on the HD DVD and Blu-ray disks. I do not believe anyone on this planet [or the next planet] that thinks one is going to watch an f-ing thing at 24 frames per second from digital or CRT projector.

Even in the movie theaters they double-frame rate it. But I do understand some people's desire to move onto the future with disposable products. I doubt anyone is seeing more than 1% component/board level repair scenarios vs making the product disposable. My only question to the poster is why the RS2 instead of something like th Sony VPL-VW40/60 LCoS (ahem, SXRD) projectors?

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trailblazer



Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Montreal,QC


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not consider the VW40 or 60 because of my screen size. I need a projector that can fill the 123 inch letterbox screen.
Most projectors adequately do 80- 100 inch 16 x9 screens but once you get into bigger screens I need a projector that has the capacity
to really display an awesome image on 120 inch screen or bigger.
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David_Web



Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Fact: Heat destroys electronics. Digital projectors are like arc welders in a little box - so HUGE amounts of heat generated in a tiny area. It's a recipe for failure and non-longevity. "

That is so true!

And the need to make them whisper quiet isn't helping ether.

A tip is to turn the fans as high as they will go while keeping the bulb in echo mode. Will give you a fair bit longer bulb life.

The problem with digitals today is the need for ultra small packages that will throw the brightest image possible. This requires a short arc discharge lamp with only 1mm gap. The output is insane but you pay the price of bulb life. Cooling it will only do so much and it will fail at around 2k hours anyway due to the electrodes breaking.

If they just made them a little bigger you could have a digital last 6k hours without problem. But the market don't seem to want that. And especially not the bulb makers. They make a fortune on those bulbs which they charge a hefty markup on due to their 'specialty' which is total bull* today as the volume have gone up considerably. If they could settle for one type of bulb it would be much cheaper.

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will never understand the need to make something not meant to be watched look so pretty. Projectors meant for a home theater do not need to be portable. Gaming consoles in this day and age of the [high speed] Internet do not need to be portable either. Yet, both suffer from serious design flaws to make the ornate more important than their function.

BTW, a hushbox with dedicated delivery and removal of colled and warmed air along with particle filtration should be rather easy to accommodate.

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15868
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The higher quality digital projectors (Sony SXRD series) and the JVS RS1/RS2 are quite large. Take a look at them in person. Some of the manufacturers are understanding that a small size isn't really important.

Here's the Sony VPL-VW100 (Ruby):



Larger size means that you no longer get that high pitched fan noise but instead a 'wooshing' noise and you don't fry things as fast due to heat. These things are damned quiet, that's for sure.

Kal

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the VW40/60 get any smaller? I think the lesser models had smaller lamp sources.
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Person99



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trailblazer wrote:
That is what I would like to know about the 1080p/24fps?
Has anyone compared an image from both, to actual see the difference?
Can you actually compare the 3:2 pulldown from a CRT to a 1080p/24 form a digital projector?
Would like to know?


I think you have missed what some have said. Movie theaters do not show film at 24fps--they show it at 48 (most often) or 72 fps.

Most of the high end digitals that accept 1080p/24 do not show at 24 either. Some convert to 60, most convert to a multiple of 24. I believe the RS2 converts it to 96 Hz in order to help the panel keep up with motion.

While the digitals have this processing onboard, a CRT must have this processing outboard. Something like a lumagen HDP (available used for around $750) can take a 1080p/24 signal and output 1080i/96 which would look quite smooth on your 8000. The biggest advantage the RS2 will have over your CRT is sharpness. If you are willing to "get your hands dirty" or hire someone to set it up well, you can get it looking close to the RS2 on most content. The RS2 will most likely be sharper on background details, but you can get the foreground looking close to as good.

If you are going to go RS2, you might want to wait awhile. The digitals are still dodgy--some good, some bad. Take the Samsung SP-H710AE, it was an incredible 720p DLP 3 years ago. Its calibration capabilities were phenomenal (unlike any PJ yet). It had the closest CIE color points of any digital (they were as good as a CRT) and varied less 130 degree across the whole grayscale ramp (not even a CRT can do that!). However, it had very bad build quality. It had a catastrophic failure rate of about 40%. Some of them also had other build quality issues if they didn't fail.

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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
The biggest advantage the RS2 will have over your CRT is sharpness. If you are willing to "get your hands dirty" or hire someone to set it up well, you can get it looking close to the RS2 on most content. The RS2 will most likely be sharper on background details, but you can get the foreground looking close to as good.
i'm going to disagree on this point simply because the OP is running the older 8000. That's a big step down from the new Marquee's. Lack of Blue Gamma tracking, contrast modulation, Dynamic Astig. and a significantly inferior video chain make it an entry level machine, on par with a Sony 1272 in most respects.
An 8500 or 9500 with a Moome HDMI card will rival the RS1 in many respects and still beat it in FFTB.
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