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Amplifier necessity
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Amplifier necessity Reply with quote


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Some of us are more audio-laden than video-laden but when it comes to the home theater world most will agree that an under-powered audio system can hurt the overall entertainment that is being projected.

I find it hard to wrestle the cash for good wattage. I've considered used amplifiers, but never seem to be in the right place at the right time to get a deal. In fact, it seems that I am always running into bad deals to full fricking retail pricing. I've also considered professional audio equipment, but even when the likes of QSC got into the home theater market they are now just as pricey.

As such, my mains are still what I would call underpowered. The integrated amplification in the AVR just wasn't really meant to be the battleship of 'power' that we all look for. What to do, what to do.

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Curt Palme
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's got preamp outs like my Denon does, the solution is simple.

Power amps are very reliable generally, so buying used is usually a good idea.

Also remember that double the power is only a 3db increase in sound level, so jumping from 50 to 100 watts of amp power isn't really a significant increase.

Unless you're bottoming out the woofers, you can usually safely well exceed the speaker wattage ratings, and 200 watts of clean power to a 50 watt speaker is usually safer than 40 watts of power that's clipped heavily.

Just other stuff to consider if you're adding power.
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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Amplifier necessity Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
Some of us are more audio-laden than video-laden but when it comes to the home theater world most will agree that an under-powered audio system can hurt the overall entertainment that is being projected.
.
it can hurt a hell of a lot more than "overall enterntainment". Confused I had a forum memerb over one night and was showing off my hT when I clipped the amp in my Denon AVR really badly. What came out of my left speaker sounded like an Arc welder. Shocked AVR's are are meant to power small speakers with a single woofer/tweeter each. If you have towers, like my Quad 22L's rated at 50 to 300watts, an AVR is sorely lacking. If you want to buy a nice 2 channel amp go to Audiogon. something like this
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1198196770
or this
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1198624417
or if you really want to get fancy, a pair of mono-blocks like these that i'm using to drive my Quads.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1197231494
these are a little pricey, I got lucky and got my pair for $800. This was my second try at high-end amps. My first was a Melody tube amp and it sucked, no power. The Monarchy's OTOH are pretty fricking awesome, I have zero regrets, well maybe one. Now that I know what a real amp is capable of I want to get rid of my Denon AVR for good. Trouble is even buying used, a dedciated pre-amp and 3 more channels of power will cost me at least $1500. more. Confused
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incova




Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 789
Location: london


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: denon avr? Reply with quote

If we are talking about a Denon Avr. I had a 3801 it got killed by my Infinity speakers may it rest in peace, luckily for you I just went this route and have the information I think you may need.

If you are using a Denon feed the pre outs for the main channels into a power amp, I have a Yamaha m85 it can drop to 2 ohms and push out a whole load of power the Denon initially sounded better but once I settled into listening to the Yamaha I realised its just as good if not better, bear in mind the Yamaha is a power amp and the Denon a cinema amp as I call them.

Now you can have the best of both worlds if your Denon is still alive, just use the Yamaha or another power amp to push the two main speakers and you are good to go, also the M85 can drive six speakers so you may want to use it to drive almost your entire surround system and use the Denon as a processor which it excels at.

For more info heres my thread from audiokarma good luck mate. A Yamaha may set you back about $450 but I have heard nothing but praise for them.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128026&page=1

Smile



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Moose




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 788
Location: Minnesota


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go PRO! I've gone pro and have never regretted it and will never will buy a consumer amp again. I used to equate heavy with excellence, which led me to Threshold, Krell and Levinson, etc. but now QSC, Crown, and others give me much more thrills. I love my current Crown Macro Reference (760 watts/channel) despite its utilitarian styling, but it's heavy as pro amps go (~60 lbs.). My next pro amps which I will need for my tri-amped speaker project will very likely be QSC. You'd don't need the current models; some of the older ones are perfectly fine and a lot cheaper. The Crown XLS series amps are cheap, light and wonderful, and if you replace the fans with quieter ones, they're as good as it gets.

Try pro. Just one will convince you, so long as you don't have the "pro equipment will never sound as good as consumer equipment" hang-up.

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Curt Palme
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Moose. THe Yamaha stuff has the notorious habit of blowing the CRAP out of the PC board if it ever fails. I've got a couple of those amps here that are blowed up real good.

With the pro stuff, it's usually way overdesigned, so even buying a used amp that's 10 years old for peanuts on eBay will be a good deal.
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papalek




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1537
Location: Longs SC


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
I'm with Moose. THe Yamaha stuff has the notorious habit of blowing the CRAP out of the PC board if it ever fails. I've got a couple of those amps here that are blowed up real good.

With the pro stuff, it's usually way overdesigned, so even buying a used amp that's 10 years old for peanuts on eBay will be a good deal.



SHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!, Don't tell people that. Shocked




I have my eye on a couple more right now. Wink





More wattage is always good. Thumbs Up Mr. Green

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incova




Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 789
Location: london


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: which yamahas? Reply with quote

which Yamaha amps guys, no point me trying to help out if its a negative, I was going to go pro but I got the Yamaha cheap and that was after a prolonged discussion about the merits of power amps of all sorts which led to my choice.
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
If it's got preamp outs like my Denon does, the solution is simple.

Power amps are very reliable generally, so buying used is usually a good idea.

Also remember that double the power is only a 3db increase in sound level, so jumping from 50 to 100 watts of amp power isn't really a significant increase.

Unless you're bottoming out the woofers, you can usually safely well exceed the speaker wattage ratings, and 200 watts of clean power to a 50 watt speaker is usually safer than 40 watts of power that's clipped heavily.

Just other stuff to consider if you're adding power.


I've got Paradign Studio 100's for the mains, the matching ADP surrounds and center channel. The mains are rated for 350 Watts, but I am currently driving them with integrated power from a Pioneer Elite VSX-45TX which only claims 100 WPC (doubt it is doing that). The Elite does have preamp outputs, which I figured I would use for external [bi]amplification when the time came.

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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone done business with Audiolines in Chicago? They have some decent demo/open box stuff, but I'd still be suspicious. But, the good thing would be they do take Amex and I do not have to deal with PreyPal (just high shipping of heavy amps).
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Curt Palme
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want pro, check out the offerings by 'avforsale' on ebay. they are a huge pro audio/video liquidator, and look at their f/b, they are VERY up front about the condition of the stuff they get. It ranges from write-offs to new in the box, and starting bids are dirt cheap.

Don't bid on the broken Crown amp that's there, I've got a lock on it. I'm not familiar with the 'new' series of Crown stuff, so I wanna see what it's like.
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Moose




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 788
Location: Minnesota


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Don't bid on the broken Crown amp that's there, I've got a lock on it. I'm not familiar with the 'new' series of Crown stuff, so I wanna see what it's like.


I assume this is that Crown Macro Reference (just like mine!) that was dropped and dented. I've thought about that one so don't be surprised if you have a little competition. I'm not able to fix it so you're up on me there (actually, because of this, I probably won't bid). It's a great amp. Crown claims a 120 S/N ratio due to very careful circuit layout. It has fans but unless you drive it really hard, the fans never come on. And it's the best bass amp there is. You do know that it's probably about 15 years old? It was replaced by the Studio Reference, which came in two versions. Pretty much the same design though.

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Curt Palme
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it's one of the new Crown units with the silver front. THe Marco References kick ass. I repaired a Delta Omega monoblock once, changed either 24 or 36 (can't remember) output transistors. The unit had a soft start and ran on 220 volts, so we triple checked everything and powered up.....(eyes closed and cringing).

IT WORKED! WE installed it as a sub amp in a club, driving 8 15" subs, worrying the whole time as to what would happen to the club if the amp smoked again on a Friday night, but it ended up running fine for years.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, see what happens when you post abot other auctions? I saw that Macro Reference amp that got dropped and torqued. It could be a helluva deal for someone, but it looks like it's missing some parts. I'll pass on that one, it's all yours.
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
If you want pro, check out the offerings by 'avforsale' on ebay. they are a huge pro audio/video liquidator, and look at their f/b, they are VERY up front about the condition of the stuff they get. It ranges from write-offs to new in the box, and starting bids are dirt cheap.

Don't bid on the broken Crown amp that's there, I've got a lock on it. I'm not familiar with the 'new' series of Crown stuff, so I wanna see what it's like.
The problem with ePrey is that few, if any, will let you use real credit cards. I do not wish to go through the PreyPal stuff.

HKmod and you, Curt, are the only people I've trusted enough to use PreyPal with.

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draganm




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha and Crown huh? I wish I had tin ears like you guys, I would be a lot wealthier and happier. Just crank up AC/DC as loud as it will go and crack open a twleve packof bud. Laughing
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wallace123456




Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know how reliable this is but now-a-days, I used to buy stuff from a newsletter call "Audio Trading Times".

http://www.montagestudio.com/portfolio/att/subscription.html

wallace

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Moose




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 788
Location: Minnesota


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before the internet, I used to subscribe to a little publication called Audiomart, which seems to similar to the Audio Trading Times. Came out twice a month, approximently, and was restricted to audio ads only mainly by private parties but some were by stores. I doubt if it exists any more.
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My solution to the power problem:

Six of these.




Krell FPB-750MCX amps. Nominal (and very conservative) rating of 750 watts RMS into 8 ohms, capable of doubling
down to below 1 ohm.


I'm using a pair of older Krells now. KMA-160 monoblocks. Nominally 160 watts into 8 ohms, more realistically
they're 250 watts into 8 ohms. Also capable of doubling down below 1 ohm.


But they sure do put out a lot of heat! Pure class A, you know...


CJ
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Moose




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 788
Location: Minnesota


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
My solution to the power problem:

Six of these.




Krell FPB-750MCX amps. Nominal (and very conservative) rating of 750 watts RMS into 8 ohms, capable of doubling
down to below 1 ohm.


I'm using a pair of older Krells now. KMA-160 monoblocks. Nominally 160 watts into 8 ohms, more realistically
they're 250 watts into 8 ohms. Also capable of doubling down below 1 ohm.


But they sure do put out a lot of heat! Pure class A, you know...


CJ


I once owned a Krell KSA-200 (big brother to the KMA-160; the mono version was the KMA-200). Huge amp that put out an incredible amount of heat and drew 15 amps continuously (the heat and the current draw caused me to sell it). Six of the above? Geez - you're looking at some electric bill! Not just to run the amps, but for the air conditioning you'll need even in the winter (not joking). I'd rather own six of my current Crown Macro Reference amps. While they don't come anywhere close to doubling power each halving of the load, they're an awfully lot more practical.

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