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Acoustic Transparency
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Spanky Ham wrote:
I could see the texture on Seymours at say 7 feet IIRC.

Was that the old "Center Stage" material, or the newer "Center Stage XD" material, Spanky?

greg_mitch wrote:
It seemed like Ruben didn't invent anything but instead just tested a lot of existing fabrics and found a good one. It shouldn't be out of the question for someone else to find the same fabric and not make as large of a margin.

That's how Ruben started, Greg. Later, he went back to the manufacturer and worked with them to tweak the vinyl shade weave to be more suitable (optimized) for the projection purposes. So, the SMX material isn't just a stock "vinyl shade material" anymore. Of course, the Seymour guy has probably done the same thing at this point.

Just get the samples of the Seymour material and see what you think. I cold see weave on the two screens I saw - probably at 5 or 6 feet, but nobody sits that close. From normal viewing distances, there was no weave or pattern visible.

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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am looking at the XD sample I have right now. I can kind of make out the texture at 9 feet or so. This is against a light tan wall. I put a piece of white paper behind it and it helped. At 10 feet or more, it probably won't be that bad.


As Crabb said, Ruben got started by trying a variety of materials. If you followed his original thread, then you would see where I tried to help him. Once he realized he could make money, he changed his tune and clammed up about the material. You can see where it got pretty heated between the pro-SMX crowd and myself and other DIY crowd. I got so upset that I pretty much withdrew from the screen forum. Now that I realize that AVS stands for sales instead of science, it doesn't bother me anymore. At Cedia, I was kind of wondering how meeting him would go, but it was all water under the bridge. His screen material is really good, but expensive. My guess is that you can't see texture from more than 3 to 4 feet away IIRC.

With all that said, try a sample of Seymours XD. It is second best unless you are that Sim shill Coldmachine. Rolling Eyes
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
I am looking at the XD sample I have right now. I can kind of make out the texture at 9 feet or so. This is against a light tan wall. I put a piece of white paper behind it and it helped. At 10 feet or more, it probably won't be that bad.


As Crabb said, Ruben got started by trying a variety of materials. If you followed his original thread, then you would see where I tried to help him. Once he realized he could make money, he changed his tune and clammed up about the material. You can see where it got pretty heated between the pro-SMX crowd and myself and other DIY crowd. I got so upset that I pretty much withdrew from the screen forum. Now that I realize that AVS stands for sales instead of science, it doesn't bother me anymore. At Cedia, I was kind of wondering how meeting him would go, but it was all water under the bridge. His screen material is really good, but expensive. My guess is that you can't see texture from more than 3 to 4 feet away IIRC.

With all that said, try a sample of Seymours XD. It is second best unless you are that Sim shill Coldmachine. Rolling Eyes


I remember reading that argument. There were allot of hard feelings with the DIY crowd.

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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just went and measured it. If I bring the wall up as far forward as I was originally planning, it will put the screen at 8ft from viewing position in front row.

Are you saying you can see the weave just in a lit room...or with a projected image on it in a dark room?

I better get that sample and make sure it will work before I frame anything out.

Seems like it might get worse later when I have a brighter projector, so even if it is fine now...might have to replace later.

I was going to provide 39" behind the screen...but might want to skimp on that space in order to increase viewing distance?
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see it in a lit room. I don't have my pj set up right now. I remember seeing the weave at the booth from at least 5 feet back. This is something that may not bother you, as I really like a smooth screen. I think Wilsonart has almost to much texture. As the poster earlier said, you might try putting a sheet behind it. While the weave is good, I can still read my computer screen through it.






AnalogRocks wrote:


I remember reading that argument. There were allot of hard feelings with the DIY crowd.


Wow, I didn't realize a lot of people read those threads.
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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
I can see it in a lit room. I don't have my pj set up right now. I remember seeing the weave at the booth from at least 5 feet back. This is something that may not bother you, as I really like a smooth screen. I think Wilsonart has almost to much texture. As the poster earlier said, you might try putting a sheet behind it. While the weave is good, I can still read my computer screen through it.

AnalogRocks wrote:


I remember reading that argument. There were allot of hard feelings with the DIY crowd.


Wow, I didn't realize a lot of people read those threads.


I would anticipate seeing through the screen if any light source is behind it...that is part of the appeal for me...I want to mimmick this...

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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that Art's theater? I am sure that would be fun, but how often would you be turning the lights on behind the screen?
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, that's not Art's theater... That's an Iowa guy - kjlewie - I saw his room on an HT crawl back in January or February. Art's is done the same way, though.

Yes, the lights are really fun... Very cool, actually. First time I saw it was at Art's. Then, I saw it at an Imax dome theater. In fact, I enjoyed the Imax marketing presentation before the feature film MORE than the feature film. It's just a really cool effect to be able to show off the gear behind the screen wall without tearing it all open when you have guests over... It's neat for people to be see what's making the sound. Necessary? No. Look at it every day? No. Just another fun design feature. Not everything has to be about practicality.

SC
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, here's kjlewie's build thread over at the Shack...
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-design-construction/11615-kjlewie-ht-redesign-thread.html

The screen is a 112" Seymour AT at 2.35.

My next room (in my next house) will definitely be AT and it will definitely be scope.

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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
No, that's not Art's theater... That's an Iowa guy - kjlewie - I saw his room on an HT crawl back in January or February. Art's is done the same way, though.

Yes, the lights are really fun... Very cool, actually. First time I saw it was at Art's. Then, I saw it at an Imax dome theater. In fact, I enjoyed the Imax marketing presentation before the feature film MORE than the feature film. It's just a really cool effect to be able to show off the gear behind the screen wall without tearing it all open when you have guests over... It's neat for people to be see what's making the sound. Necessary? No. Look at it every day? No. Just another fun design feature. Not everything has to be about practicality.

SC


Yes...thank you...exactly.

My entire theater isn't necessary so why stop at the acoustic screen when asking that question...Is that really necessary?
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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Oh, here's kjlewie's build thread over at the Shack...
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-design-construction/11615-kjlewie-ht-redesign-thread.html

The screen is a 112" Seymour AT at 2.35.

My next room (in my next house) will definitely be AT and it will definitely be scope.

SC


I followed it over on AVS for a little bit...can't believe he had two threads!

I have 14' in width...I want to get something wide enough and tall enough for 16x9 but mask it off for 2.35 or 2.4 if I want to.

Haven't designed the build portion of it yet...although I want the thing to be kid friendly...as in...she will touch it and it shouldn't fall over or break.
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kabuby77




Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does someone know where to find AT screen material in Europe? I like seymour center stage but shipping is more expensive than the material.... Evil or Very Mad
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may not be of much help, kabuby... But, Seymour actually imports their high-end Enlightor 4k material from their partner in London - Screen Excellence. Perhaps you can reach out to them. It's pretty expensive here, and I don't think it's typically available as raw material for DIY the way their CenterStage material is, but maybe you can appeal to their good nature in Europe.

http://www.screenexcellence.com

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kabuby77




Joined: 28 Mar 2011
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know screenexcellence Cool , but they do not sell for diy because they argue it is too difficult to tension.
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was able to get SeymourAV to build a 12' 2.35:1 4K SE screen for me that was to go behind my Carada CIH Masquerade. It was a basic square aluminum frame with the channel for the screen material screwed onto the front so that the screen surface would sit close to the masking panels. It wasn't DIY cheap (a little over $1K if I remember correctly), but it was way cheaper than getting a full up screen. The 4K fabric isn't quite as bright as the SeymourAV CenterStage XD, but it has absolutely zero moire, and no visible texture unless you're a couple inches from the screen.

I don't know of any "cheap" 4K-type AT options, but I know there's been a lot of traffic on the DIY screen section of AVS regarding spandex screens. I haven't seen one in person, but I do know there are lot of satisfied spandex screen users over there, and given the material's fine texture that may be one of your best bets for a 4K-type DIY solution. Here's one of the larger threads for reference:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436181/110-diy-spandex-at-screen

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
I was able to get SeymourAV to build a 12' 2.35:1 4K SE screen for me that was to go behind my Carada CIH Masquerade. It was a basic square aluminum frame with the channel for the screen material screwed onto the front so that the screen surface would sit close to the masking panels. It wasn't DIY cheap (a little over $1K if I remember correctly), but it was way cheaper than getting a full up screen. The 4K fabric isn't quite as bright as the SeymourAV CenterStage XD, but it has absolutely zero moire, and no visible texture unless you're a couple inches from the screen.

I don't know of any "cheap" 4K-type AT options, but I know there's been a lot of traffic on the DIY screen section of AVS regarding spandex screens. I haven't seen one in person, but I do know there are lot of satisfied spandex screen users over there, and given the material's fine texture that may be one of your best bets for a 4K-type DIY solution. Here's one of the larger threads for reference:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436181/110-diy-spandex-at-screen


Really? I have a 10' wide 2.35 version from them. I did not know they would custom build. I wonder if I could have gotten them to make me a 10' wide 1.78 screen ...

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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
I was able to get SeymourAV to build a 12' 2.35:1 4K SE screen for me that was to go behind my Carada CIH Masquerade. It was a basic square aluminum frame with the channel for the screen material screwed onto the front so that the screen surface would sit close to the masking panels. It wasn't DIY cheap (a little over $1K if I remember correctly), but it was way cheaper than getting a full up screen. The 4K fabric isn't quite as bright as the SeymourAV CenterStage XD, but it has absolutely zero moire, and no visible texture unless you're a couple inches from the screen.

I don't know of any "cheap" 4K-type AT options, but I know there's been a lot of traffic on the DIY screen section of AVS regarding spandex screens. I haven't seen one in person, but I do know there are lot of satisfied spandex screen users over there, and given the material's fine texture that may be one of your best bets for a 4K-type DIY solution. Here's one of the larger threads for reference:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436181/110-diy-spandex-at-screen


Really? I have a 10' wide 2.35 version from them. I did not know they would custom build. I wonder if I could have gotten them to make me a 10' wide 1.78 screen ...


I'm very sure you could have.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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kabuby77




Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
... The 4K fabric isn't quite as bright as the SeymourAV CenterStage XD, but it has absolutely zero moire, and no visible texture unless you're a couple inches from the screen...


I'm CRT ab-user Mr. Green , so brightness is an issue. I know the center stage dosn't have moire problems with crt, has anyone ever seen it?
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HogPilot




Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kabuby77 wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
... The 4K fabric isn't quite as bright as the SeymourAV CenterStage XD, but it has absolutely zero moire, and no visible texture unless you're a couple inches from the screen...


I'm CRT ab-user Mr. Green , so brightness is an issue. I know the center stage dosn't have moire problems with crt, has anyone ever seen it?


I've seen it, not with a CRT though. Since CRTs don't have defined pixels like digital projectors, I would imagine that moire would almost be a non-issue with any AT fabric since there's no pixel grid to line up with the fabric's weave pattern. The CenterStage XD also has an irregular weave pattern which helps to inhibit moire, but that can also lead to what I can best describe as "sparkles" - the result of more light getting reflected from denser areas of the fabric which contains less holes than neighboring areas. It's really only prevalent with large blocks of solid color, and I didn't notice it too often.

You can get a free sample of the fabric from the Seymour AV website.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hog, years ago at a home theater meet I was asked to explain what DLP rainbows were. I explained it to this gentleman, and then he observed them on a Sim2 projector. He then asked, "How do I now stop seeing them?" I thought to myself, 'I hadn't thought about that' and shrugged and walked away.

Now you are describing how one could potential see sparkles in the XD woven material. Guess what? Next time I'm down in my theater I'm going to be looking for those damn sparkles.

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