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Acoustic Transparency
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trimble




Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Acoustic Transparency Reply with quote


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I am looking for recommendations on a manual/motorized 100-120" screen that is acoustically transparent. Thanks!
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paw




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, some more details would help. Like

The projector you'll be using
What screen gain you want
If it's a digital projector are you
Using it in a light control environment
Or have ambient light issues to deal with
Mounting on the wall, on the ceiling or in the ceiling
Want remote control or trigger

All of the major manufacturers - Stewart, Vutec, DaLite, Draper, etc should have an AT screen.

Here's a woven screen from a custom manufacturer

http://www.seymourav.com

They have really good prices

I'm 99% sure it's the same material as this other custom manufacturer

http://www.smxscreen.com

But SMX got all uppity and upscale. However, their fixed frame looks very nice. They don't offer a motorized screen at the moment. Though one has been talked about. I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

Overclock (Cliff) uses the SMX material with a G90 stack. He loves it.

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Aubrey
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trimble




Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks paw:

The projector you'll be using: Electrohome 8000

What screen gain you want: I don't yet know enough to answer this. Presently I'm throwing my image up on a sheet of heavy white polyester if that gives you any idea!

If it's a digital projector are you: No, CRT
Using it in a light control environment: Yes, a *dark* basement
Or have ambient light issues to deal with: No

Mounting on the wall, on the ceiling or in the ceiling: All are acceptable, choice to be made based on cost differential.

Want remote control or trigger: Either is acceptable, though it would really cool to be able to control the screen through the computer application which I play movies through (MythTV: http://www.mythtv.org)

Mark
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danOO00




Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Putnam County, NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an AT screen from SeymourAV- great prices and service.

I have one of the first screens they made, a motorized roll-up, and it has some minor waves in the material. It is definitely not due to the roller bar- it is very heavy duty and does not flex at all. They offered to re-mount the material to the roller and border using a new tensioning method, or upgrade to an experimental "tab tensioned" model for no charge- just my shipping to him. The material is very similar to SMX. I am very happy with the overall image quality and sound transparency mated with my NEC PG and a decent 5.1 audio system.
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paw




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK! Since you're a CRT you want to avoid very high gains. They'll hot spot and color shift. Usually under 2 is fine. With a perforated material you lose some lumens anyway. The Stewart with Videomatte 150 or 180 (1.5 or 1.8 gain) will probably run $4K - $6K. Just a swag. Studiotek 130 (1.3 gain) is their reference white material. Though you might want a higher gain than 1.3. You'll need an equalizer from Stewart to boost certain frequencies. The material attunated them. They have 2 perforations cineperf and microperf. Microperf is smaller and more perforations. If you set closer, that's the one to pick. You're less likely to see the perforations. Just be warned that perforations weaken the material and it tears easier. The woven materials like SMX, Seymour and Screen Research are stronger. If you ever switch to a digital, you have to be careful of morie. That's not spelled right. There's were the size of the pixels interacts with certain patterns and produce a resulting wavy pattern. Stewart can adjust the perf pattern to avoid this. SMX & Seymour can rotate the material slightly to avoid it. I assume Screen Research can do the same. Supposedly with SMX or Seymour you don't need the equalizer. SMX and maybe Seymour have some data on their websites. A Seymour electric looks to be $900 - $2000 depending the size and case or no case. With the no case, you build the screen into the ceiling to conceal it. If I was in the market for an AT electric screen, I'd look hard at the Seymour. Both the SMX and Seymour materials are supposed to be strong. They are actually a woven PVC outdoor fabric. Pretty tough stuff. The only negative I kind of see with the Seymour was that the tab looked to be small. Personally I think they need to be wider for appearance at least.
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Aubrey
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jask




Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10164
Location: kamloops BC


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is for a wall mount? or do you need to be able to retract the screen?
I have only seen a few A/T screen and they all left me underwhelmed the patterning on full white or large areas of white "texture" the image and with a digital it was distracting,to the point that I kept forgetting to watch the content while I was looking at the image issues!
An EQ and analyser could allow you to run the center behind a regular screen,like movie theaters have been doing for years.
edit: if you choose to wall mount, you can still use your trigger output to control a set of power curtains.
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tony359




Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 378



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found Seymour screens few time ago. I loved SMX screens but become too expensive since they sell complete screens only.

Seymour is the same material (it's just "solar shade fabric", I read once on SMX forum that was the same material) and cheaper.

I received the screen in a tube. FedEx destroyed the top of the tube, but luckily the inside was safe.

My previous screen was an Harkness Hall microperforated 1.0 cinema screen. HH is the biggest company for cinema screens in the world.

Seymour's wonderful, the holes cannot be seen from 3 meters, and you can just see the "grain" of the fabric. No comparison with the old HH screen, where the little holes (despite microperforated) were perfectly noticeable.

IMHO the main issue is the gain. The declared gain is 1.16. My old screen was 1.0.

The difference is that HH makes professional screens. When professionals says 1.0, it's 1.0! (usually).

I put a sample of screen above the HH few weeks before buying it. The result was a darker image. Much darker.

But who cares, I cannot see that holes anymore.

Then I installed the Seymour, and during some tests I noted that around the frame where the screen was folded and touched the screen from behind, the image was brighter since the holes have a white surface behind.

So I buy a white bed sheet and installed it very very behind the screen, in a very tensioned way. There is, say, 0.2" between screen and sheet.

Of course you'll say that white behind the screen is evil. Yes, if you have a white wall behind the screen, the light that passes throught the holes will reflect all behind the screen, killing contrast. But if you put a white sheet VERY behind the screen, the light will refect just from it came. It's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I did not made tests (the screen was heavy and I was alone) but I just noticed the same light than before, no more holes and very good white balance.

So I'm saying: try a white sheet behind your seymour screen. Then a black sheet behind everything is correct (I have black velvet to the walls).

Ah, and don't worry for sound: a bed sheet will not affect it in any way...

I'm very happy. I'm hoping that next generation Full HD projectors will be able to light a much wider screen! At the moment I have a CRT.

Ciao
Antonio



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old screen on the new one. The reddish tone is made by incandescent light, the old screen was very white!
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting experiment, Tony. Did you test the audio both with and without the sheet?
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tony359




Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 378



PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the screen is heavy and I do not have anyone that can help me.

A cotton sheet cannot do anything to the sound, be sure! Smile

Ciao

A
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Person99




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tony359 wrote:

The difference is that HH makes professional screens. When professionals says 1.0, it's 1.0! (usually).



Then Carada must not be professional. When they say 1.4 it is 1.0!

tony359 wrote:
But if you put a white sheet VERY behind the screen, the light will refect just from it came. It's just my opinion, I could be wrong.


I should soften the image just a little bit because the light is reflecting from two different planes. But, since they are so close to each other, you may not be able to notice it at all.

But interesting test. I've never been able to find an acoustically transparent screen that does not annoy me from my 11' viewing distance. But I've not tried this solution!

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Dave

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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tony359




Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 378



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then Carada must not be professional. When they say 1.4 it is 1.0!


Well, "professional" does not mean "perfection". But usually in the PRO world you have to respect some standard and you cannot discover after the installation of a 75 foot screen that the gain is not the one advertised and the light on the screen is not enough for your premiere presentation! Smile

Quote:
I should soften the image just a little bit because the light is reflecting from two different planes. But, since they are so close to each other, you may not be able to notice it at all.


Exactly.

Quote:
But interesting test. I've never been able to find an acoustically transparent screen that does not annoy me from my 11' viewing distance. But I've not tried this solution!


I'm watching from 10 foot, approximately.

Ciao
Antonio
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Sunny




Joined: 08 May 2008
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice screen, though.
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To me, photography is an art of observation. It's about finding something interesting in an ordinary place... I've found it has little to do with the things you see and everything to do with the way you see them.
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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321



PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not up on the accoustically transparent screens and screen technology in general as I have a BOC screen since day 1 in my theater.

I want to go AT and really want to do it with SeymourAV DIY material. Do I just get the standard XD material? I will eventually be upgrading to 1080p LCD likely and want the material to be compatible to avoid another screen change in a year.

When does one want the 15deg weave, etc.? Thanks for the help if you can provide any.

Thinking of getting a fairly large piece of material to make a large 16x9 screen and then coming up with some manual masking panels to mask off portions of the screen for 2.40 material or a smaller screen until I change projectors as my AT wall will be moving closer to the XG and I am not in the mood to remount the projector...if it comes down...it doesn't go back up, if you know what I mean.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg,

You need the 15deg weave if you're doing 1080p with a fairly sharp digital with low pixel fill ratio, but it depends on the projected image size. Like 1080p LCD, and depending on screen size. If you're using DLP, or especially SXRD or LCoS, you probably wouldn't need it. You definitely wouldn't need it with CRT. I'm sure you could ask the Seymour guy about whether you'd need the rotation or not.

There are a couple of guys on AVS in your neck of the woods that have Seymour screens - I'm sure they'd be happy to show them off to you.

SC
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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Greg,

You need the 15deg weave if you're doing 1080p with a fairly sharp digital with low pixel fill ratio, but it depends on the projected image size. Like 1080p LCD, and depending on screen size. If you're using DLP, or especially SXRD or LCoS, you probably wouldn't need it. You definitely wouldn't need it with CRT. I'm sure you could ask the Seymour guy about whether you'd need the rotation or not.

There are a couple of guys on AVS in your neck of the woods that have Seymour screens - I'm sure they'd be happy to show them off to you.

SC


Yeah....your CR meet photos and the fact that I was selling my entire speaker system got me going on AT screens. I think it is something to get me back excited about the theater...it was sitting 85% complete for a few years and we were only using it once every 2 weeks.

Of course...it is nice out now so I don't know how much time I will spend down there but building in the garage should be fun.

I was going to send an email but that is the information I was looking for. I am going to see what sort of throw and screen size will work with a Panny 4000 (or 5000 or 6000 whenever I replace this beast).

My AT screen wall will be moving forward about 3' so the viewing distance was a concern for me and seeing the "grain" or weave pattern through the projected image.

Just ordered the new front three speakers...so I guess it is the point of no return!
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg,
You should get a sample to see if you like it. I could still see the texture at I think around 8 feet. I will have to double check, as I have a sample somewhere around here. If you want to spend the money, then SMX is the screen to get.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greg_mitch wrote:
Just ordered the new front three speakers...so I guess it is the point of no return!

Cool! Whadjagit?

SC
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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
Greg,
You should get a sample to see if you like it. I could still see the texture at I think around 8 feet. I will have to double check, as I have a sample somewhere around here. If you want to spend the money, then SMX is the screen to get.


Everything I am reading says the material is the exact same between SMX and SeymourAV. They have a small sample for free so I will call Monday for a sample.

SC...went DIY...we will see how they turn out...putting them out of sight behind a screen helped to push me over the edge...won't be as concerned about appearance since my woodworking skills are not polished!

I am going for a poor man's version of something like this...



but with a single 12".

Quite the departure but I thought...what the hell...let's do it. I have envied JBL Cinema for quite some time.

If I don't like it..no big deal. Just try something different next...that is the beauty of this hobby...never stuck in one place for long. Thumbs Up
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Spanky Ham




Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't kid yourself! The SMX screen is different from Seymours. SMX was using some sunshade fabric that I believe Cris was sourcing as well. I believe it was the Phifer. Ruben introduced a new material and it is much better. Texture and perfs are nearly invisible from more than a couple feet away. I could see the texture on Seymours at say 7 feet IIRC. I think Cris said he was coming out with a new screen material, so give him a call.
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greg_mitch




Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
Don't kid yourself! The SMX screen is different from Seymours. SMX was using some sunshade fabric that I believe Cris was sourcing as well. I believe it was the Phifer. Ruben introduced a new material and it is much better. Texture and perfs are nearly invisible from more than a couple feet away. I could see the texture on Seymours at say 7 feet IIRC. I think Cris said he was coming out with a new screen material, so give him a call.


I guess I would have to see it. It could be a case of people who dropped a dime on SMX defending it or people not willing to spend defending SeymourAV. Whichever...I am not spending over $500 on a screen. I just don't see the increase in picture quality worth it when a white wall, BOC, Wilsonart, etc. looks damn good.

I am going to get a sample of Seymours material. It seemed like Ruben didn't invent anything but instead just tested a lot of existing fabrics and found a good one. It shouldn't be out of the question for someone else to find the same fabric and not make as large of a margin.

I think my main concern now is viewing distance. It is going to be close.
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