CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

ecrabb

As some of you are aware, Art Sonneborn replaced his G90 stack with a high-end 3-chip DLP and 14-foot wide scope screen with side masking. He decided to do a meet again, and I just had to go to compare to the G90 stack I saw last year. The meet was just Saturday and I thought some of you might like hearing about it. I can fill in the blanks more if you anybody is interested, but I thought a few of you might like to at least get a quick low-down on an awesome HT meet with a reference system.

The basic system is a Stewart Vistascope screen with side masking and BRIC controller, The SIM2 HT5000 3 Chip DLP, ISCO III anamorphic lens and Cineslide motorized lens sled. He also upgraded his audio with Mark Seaton-designed speakers and subs, and Dolby Lake EQ. This is a very expensive setup by any measure.

My experience went something like this:
Walked in and found a seat in the front row. I took the end seat and gave my buddy the seat left of center since I'd been there before. Right away, I noticed when people walked between the projector and screen, there was a shadow on the screen - even with dimmed room lighting. I immediately started thinking, "Wow, are the blacks going to suck THAT much?!?!?" How would Art tolerate it? Oh well, I'll reserve judgement.

Lights dimmed, projector muted, and screen masked to 4:3, Art started out by telling everybody why he loved HT - basically how his love for going to see movies got him through college and rough days, and how helping his dad buy and set up a Kloss Novabeam hooked him on HT forever. Background out of the way, it was demo time.

They left the lights dimmed and played a CD track with an acoustic version of Elton John's Candle in the Wind. Guitar and vocals were crystal clear and the sound stage, presence, and transparency of the sound were all exceptional. Excellent definition in the vocal and guitar strings. Great dynamics and a very "open" sound. I'm no huge Elton John fan, but I will pick up that recording. Mark Seaton must have done a hell of a job on the speakers and EQ, because it was definitely up there with some of the best audio I've ever heard. Keep in mind there was no projector or fans whatsoever in the room, so the noise floor was extremely low - as in, close to sensory deprivation chamber low. That really facilitated a quiet acoustic piece like that. That's one thing I REALLY miss in my theater.

Next up, a clip Casablanca on HD-DVD. Screen is still masked to 4:3, so approximate screen size was about 8x6 feet. Right away, I noticed the excellent bright whites and what appeared to be impeccable greyscale. Damn, Ken Whitcomb does good work. Wow, it's sharp. You can really see film grain and other source artifacts. Rack focus between characters' faces was really interesting. It's been awhile since I watched black and white. There's no convergence is alignment issues visible from the seating position... at ALL. It appears perfect from my seat. Then, I notice just how good the shadow detail was - awesome, actually. Nice black suits with excellent detail, and nice soft transitions into the shadows. Excellent low-IRE reproduction. Next, I notice that all the blacks look really black. The black shadows looked black. Well, that's ANSI... digitals are great there, right? Fine. Grade: A. Let's see some other stuff.

Side masking opens up to 16:9, which would have been approximately 10'8" x 6'. It's a clip from Corpse Bride on Blu-Ray - where the underworld characters are singing to Johnny Depp explaining how the Corpse Bride came to be. If you've seen this, you know the lighting and color are phenomenal. The stop-action film was shot on Canon D-SLR's, and so is extremely sharp and free from artifacts. So it was on Art's system. Very sharp, very clean, color was punchy. Some of the skeletons dance on black backgrounds, so it's going to suck there, right? Sorry to disappoint some of you, but it was DAMN good. I had to really LOOK for it to find that it wasn't pure black. The lack of black used to ruin the color on lesser digitals. Rich color is one of the things I love about CRT. This SIM2 does rich color. It's gorgeous and the Corpse Bride clips looked beautiful. Uniformity looked excellent, too on a couple of the more solid images. Sound was awesome. The Danny Elfman jazz track was clean, crisp and really popped out at you - just like the on-screen image. Grade: A.

Next, the masking opens up to 2.35:1 so we're seeing the 14' x 6' Stewart Vistascope in all its glory. They switch sources and the Cineslide shuttles the ISCO III lens into place in front of the projector. I only knew because Art said so. I must have looked away for second because I missed it. Now, we're treated to a long clip from 300 on HD-DVD. This film is styled and grainy. I still haven't seen it, but I know from what I've red it's visually stunning. I'm sitting maybe 10' from a 14' wide screen and the image is now HUGE. I now have some of the screen and image straight out in front of me (and even to the left a little, even though I'm on the left end of the row). Now, I start to really feel the impact a screen that large has. The graphic title "300" slashes across the screen and it's so incredibly sharp. It looks and sounds awesome. Amazing, in fact.

This screen size is just mind-blowing. It's so bright it's almost too bright during a couple of scenes. Yet, when the Persians are pushed into a deep hole, and the camera follows them into the abyss - the moment I was expecting to say, "Oh, there it is - no absolute black - digital still sucks...", that moment never came. Even fade to blacks, titles on black... in practice, I just never noticed it as a problem. He didn't play Star Wars or something else that was all black all them, but I suspect even in those, there's usually just enough light to close your pupils just enough to make the black look pretty black.

After watching awhile, I did start to notice something... I'm not sure if it's screen door or AT perforations, but it's there and it's distracting me. I have a feeling it was screen door, but very subtle. Perhaps it was exaggerated ever so slightly by the AT perforations. I didn't exactly have to go looking for it, but it wasn't horrible, either. It really bothered me thinking about it, until I realized just how close I was sitting. At 10' from a 14' screen, we're talking .7x screen widths. I would have to sit 5.5 feet from my 8'-wide screen to get the same viewing angle. 5.5 feet. That's insane. I sit 10 feet away. I was damn near TWICE as close to the screen (relatively speaking) as I sit in my theater. Wow.

Later, we watched some clips from King Kong on HD-DVD and watched the entire Casino Royale (BD). Wow. Breathtaking. Casino Royale was simply incredible. I was watching from the second row at that point - so, probably 16' or 1.1x from the screen. Some of the shots in that movie looked almost like 35mm slides projected on the screen. Background detail that went on and on. Even in the second row, it was still very immersive, but there was no visible pixel structure, no screen door, and no other artifacts. The only time I ever noticed anything back there was some small white type (credits) on a black background. I saw some pixels/lack of resolution. At that screen size, even 1920x1080 yields about 11.42 pixels/inch. There just isn't enough res to render small type well, and it becomes noticeable as the screen size goes up. After sitting in both rows, I think I'd be happiest in the second row of Art's theater.

My personal conclusion is that at the high end, digital is getting really exceptional. It's not perfect but nether is CRT, film, or anything else for that matter. It does almost everything better than CRT and it does them exceptionally well. Obviously, it's EXTREMELY expensive right now, but the price will fall and the quality will continue to improve.

The digital projector may not have been the same decision all of us would make even if we had the money to spend, but there's no question in my mind that Art has a truly reference-class home theater. Art can afford to buy what he wants to get the experience he wants and I respect him for going after what he feels is the best for him. I can say without question it was certainly worth the 7.5-hour drive to experience the results that can be obtained by someone with Art's vision, patience, passion, and means.

Thanks to Art, his family, Ken W, Mark S and everyone else involved in Art's setup and putting together the meet for making it all possible.

The party was awesome, too. It was fun meeting fellow HT enthusiasts, seeing some I already know and just hanging out with a great bunch of people. It's worth nothing that there were still lots of CRT guys at Art's party.

One funny anecdote. During the drawing for the door prizes, Cliff (overclocker, of G90 stack fame) won the opportunity to purchase a Sony Pearl at cost. Oh, the irony.

I'd be happy to try to answer questions about Art's system or the demo or whatever. Sorry this got so long-winded. I just thought some of you would get a kick out reading about the experience from the perspective of a CRT fanatic.

SC

overclkr · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 4227

Great post!!!!! That was so much fun.

To think that the HT5000 measures roughly 5000 to one contrast huh? Kick that ANSI in though, and BAMMMMM!!!!!!!!!! Very Happy

Cliffy

**kal** · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the info SC!

Maybe one day this sort of performance will trickle down the prices the masses can afford (the SIM HT5000 MSRP is $49K USD, and that's without the ISCO III anamorphic lens and Cineslide motorized lens sled).

Kal

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

well sounds like it was a lot of fun, i'm sure Art is a heck of a host and why he's loved so much by everyone. The screen shots I saw on AVS looked good but not great. I think a stacked pair of JVC RS1's would have delivered a much better pic performance over that DLP thingy. There would be just as much light output, 3 times the contrast ratio, and twice the resolution as well with no pic grain. I was really surprised when Art went with DLP, most CRT's guys who switch go to LCOS or DILA?Oh well, I hope he's thoroughly satisfied with his purchase and gets as much enjoyment out of it as the G90's.

ecrabb · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject:

Moose · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 788 Location: Minnesota

dbaisey · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject:

ecrabb,
Very good review you put up. Quite honest and kudos to Art for going for it. Border line semi large venue but controlled. Thanks for the review. I haven't followed audio that much but it sounds like Arts choice with Seaton was a good one also. Doug

overclkr · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 4227

ecrabb · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject:

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

yes 14 feet is huge but he should have added a 3rd G90 instead of a DLP.

ecrabb · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject:

Oh, come on. THREE CRT's on a 14' wide screen? 50% more chance of 'issues' compared to a 2-machine stack and 50% more chance of drift affecting the pic. The 3-chip DLP's panel alignment is within 1/3 of a pixel at worst, all over the screen, will stay that way. Worse yet, ANSI contrast would still be inferior to the digital. Finally, instead of adding 50% MORE noise, he eliminated the noise from the room completely - which is a MASSIVE upgrade if you care about your sound as much as your PQ.

Then, there's setup, calibration and maintenance - all made more expensive and complicated with 3 projectors instead of 2. What about phosphor usage?

Art is getting 21fL on that screen - and it's incredible. What would three G90's yield?

CRT's simply aren't the very best solution for every possible application.

SC

overclkr · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 4227

Well said.

Cliff

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

I wasn't really being serious, anyone who stacks more than 2 CRT's is either insane, working for the government, or both. Laughing

What about blending a pair of G90's with Diventix? I would think that while it wouldn't deliver 21FL on a 14 foot screen it might have delivered an accpetable 14 or 15 on a non-perf 1.3 gain screen no?

ecrabb · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject:

Whew. OK, I'm glad you were kidding. You need to use a smiley when post something like that. I wasn't sure - there's a few CRT/analog zealots around here that could never admit if a digital anything was better than an analog anything for ANY application whatsoever.

OK, seriously... On a scope screen, you'd be projecting about a 6x8 image w/each projector, with a 2' blend zone in the center. If I had two projectors already, and a room the size of Art's, I'd definitely want to try it. But, it's not like Blendzilla is a cheap acquisition, and it would have required a complete reconfiguring of the projector mounting locations, hushboxes, wiring, etc. It would be a major remodel in his case, and in the end, he'd still have the projectors in the room and ANSI contrast would still be inferior. It would have been a cheaper upgrade, though - that's for sure.

I have to say... Having the projector in a completely separate room shooting through a hole in the wall is REALLY cool. Totally silent, nothing to interrupt the ceiling (boxes)... and it looks and works just like a real movie theater. I can definitely see the appeal. I can't overstate how cool it was to sit there in complete silence before the movie started. Nothing... just dead quiet. My projector doesn't ever seem that loud during the movie, but when I turn it off... then I realize just how loud it is. What a difference it makes.

SC

overclkr · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 4227

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

overclkr · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 4227

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

i dont remember exactly what fans he sisabled in the 90, i remember that the 1292, had somethin ridiculous like 10 internal fans Shocked

he cut it down to like 3 and we used a fan like this http://www.hvacquick.com/frfnconfig.php?fm=rvf&PHPSESSID=ibb6qcbli1a6o3emsb190amtg6

its a bathroom fan mounted outside the house, w/ a 4in flexible duct. It draws enough air to cool both. seal the hush box well enough, so you are only drawing air that you want. preferably in fromthe bottom front of the pj's and out by the top rear.. that way the flow is going thru the pj's and you are good.

ecrabb · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:11 am Post subject:

Cliff - Where are your hushbox exhaust fan(s) located and what sort are they?

SC