CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273

I have yet to see any of the Sony LCoS products in a controlled environment, calibrated, etc. and as a result I cannot offer comment relating to experience. The only thing I can say is I am curious as to how inexpensive these 1080P LCoS projectors are getting. I remember when Sony's first SXRD projector came out it was as expensive as the G90's MSRP. The the Ruby for $10K, and the Pearl for $5K. Now this new offering for $4K list for this fall.

And please remember that I don't venture to other sites so I do not know what is being said, or otherwise. Shocked

**kal** · Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject:

It *is* amazing how the prices have dropped. $4K MSRP will likely mean low $3K's street.

This is the sort of projector I'll likely be recommending to friends who know nothing aboout HT and come to my place. They won't notice the deficiencies and I won't have to support the thing forever... Smile

Kal

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject:

Never mind the fact that I sell CRTs, this constant downward spiral of electronics pricing isn't benefitting anyone IMHO, and here's why.

It seems to me in any other industry, you get what you pay for. You can't get a high end bottle of wine for $10.00, you can't find a Porsche or Rolls Royce for a Hyundai price, 10,000 sq foot homes don't sell for the price of an 800 sq ft condo.

Why then is the entire electronics industry so hell bent in slaughtering prices? We've all seen what happens as a result. Customer service goes for a sh*t, the longevity of an item goes from say 10 years to 3, and that's apparently perfectly acceptable. Some of you might disagree, but I personally have no need for a 500 gig hard drive for $300. I'd rather pay $300 for a 20 gig hard drive, but have it come with a 10 year warranty with free data recovery if the drive crashes in that time frame. I know little about hard drive construction, but seems to me that the bearings of the spin motor would have to be beefed up and the HD magnetic layer would need to be a bit thicker.

I'd had two HD crashes in my life which each cost me $300 to get the data back off it.

So, with projectors, I say a 1080p unit should be $10K, but it should last 10 years. A 720p unit should be $7K, a 1080i unit should be $4-5K. The product should work out of the box, none of this HDMI glitching as we're seeing with high end receivers (I read it here or on avs, can't remember), and a premium display device should be bought at a premium. The companies selling and making the units would see a reasonable (20-30%?) profit, and they should give a longer life product along with better customer service along with reasonable out of warranty repair pricing the way it used to be.

Even with the JVC unit, I did a 1/2 assed inquiry to see if one of the large volume dealers would work with me so I could possibly offer the RS1 here on the site. I won't go into details, but the pricing they offered me seemed very attractive, and I'm sure it was at under 10% over their cost. Based on the MSRP, I figured I could flip a few and some people would buy them from me. Once the company told me the typical street price, and I started reading the problems associated with the JVC, I realized I'd most likely I'd lose the profit of 3 sets, dealing with one that had problems. Forget it, not worth my time.

So, sort of back to the topic, yes, the digitals are looking better. They still have a crappy life span, the Qualias are starting to break down as per a recent avs thread, and who knows if anything digital can really ever be expected to be repaired at a reasonable out of warranty price.

**kal** · Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject:

I have to agree with you 110% Curt.

Prices have been slashed but at the cost of reliability. Who's to to blame? US! THE CONSUMER! We now accept the fact that when we bring something home and plug it in it may not work correctly because it needs firmware updates, tweaking, etc. Insane.

Kal

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273

While I am amazed at the gross reduction in price, I am frequently reminded why I like CRT so much. Just last night I was playing Rainbow Six Vegas on a CRT RPTV after watching Sleepy Hollow on an LCD flat-panel (in the family room). The level of contrast even on such a poor setup as that old CRT RPTV was much better than you could have imagined had you not had the opportunity to A-B in the same home.

Unfortunately, I do not see many 1080P CRT projectors being used for console gaming as a norm. Being budget limited, I'd never use as a norm a CRT FP for gaming when I'd rather save the hours for HDTV and HD movies. Still, its next to impossible to have ever seen a 1080P CRT RPTV, and I checked BB, CC, and Sears and only one model amongst the three offered a single CRT product to sell.

I wonder what it would cost me to find a set of replacement tubes for my old Mitsubishi WS-65907 Diamond RPTV (c.2000).

scottap · Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 177 Location: Palo Alto, CA

According to the AVS powerbuy for this projector, the actual U.S. MSRP is $4,999.

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.sony.jp/CorporateCruise/Press/200708/07-0821/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsony%2Bvpl-vw60%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Also, http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.ecat.sony.co.jp/visual/projector/products/index.cfm%3FPD%3D28587%26KM%3DV&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsony%2Bvpl-vw60%26start%3D90%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

If you go with either 441,000 or 420,000 Yen both are under $4K retail. I purposely chose not to use sites outside of Japan, but had I chosen otherwise there are several reporting $4K as the list. Pay what you wish. Smile

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12026 Location: Fort Collins, CO

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

Clarence · Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject:

Clarence · Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject:

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject:

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject:

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject:

Yep,. one of the high end stereo stores here also shut down and moved to a warehouse. All they do is high end custom installs now without the high price of a retail store.

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12026 Location: Fort Collins, CO

LOL!!!! Clarence, not sure how I read that wrong (French on the brain I guess), but I definitely prefer your brassiere beer engine!!! Laughing

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273

Damn! Now that girl knows how to par tee

Brian Hampton · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 1174

Hey,

I saw a ruby in action once and it looked ok.

I'm thrilled that I have a G70 and back when I first saw a 1031 in action I though .. If only I could own one of those.

Still,.. I agree with the points Curt makes and don't like the way electronics are becoming more and more disposable. And at the same time these little Sxrd pjs getting cheaper and cheaper looks like a good thing.

I don't imagine I would ever walk away from CRT FP but if I had to go buy a pearl for $3k it might not be the worst possible thing, seems a lot better then DLP and LCD.

**kal** · Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:10 am Post subject:

Interesting! According to this CEDIA report , they've added convergence to the VW60!

"Sony provided demos of their VW60 and VW200. A step up from the Pearl, the VW60 adds a few touches which really make this projector a welcome addition to any home theater. That is they've added vertical stretch (in their menu it's called Anamorphic zoom), better contrast through redesigned panels, and for those who considered the Pearl and the Ruby "soft" a new grid system which allows points of tenths of a pixels step convergence.

Talk about taking sharpness and color seriously... Images were sharp though still film-like. The hi-def material simply rocked and I saw little evidence of noise. At $4999 MSRP, I know some people were disappointed that it isn't less, but with the refinements they added, the Black Pearl is going to be a home theater staple for people looking at $5000 and under.

The VW200 is their 400w Xenon bulb projector adding a ton of brightness and color. (Note, the VW60 has great color, just not as punchy as the VW200 from the Xenon bulb). Again, the VW200 adds the convergence features of the VW60 and 144 zone pixel convergence areas of their grid. It also adds 120/fps motion correction which as shown, took material and focused the heck out of it, especially during scenes with fast pan and fast motion sequences, focusing material that looked blurry without. Colors were very punchy and it was very film-like, something I personally enjoy from Sony and from SXRD. The top of the case is now a pearlescent blue. Not sure they had to change anything from the Ruby but it's changed.

Both projectors feature gamma correction controls in the Custom Installer menu. I would have liked to spend more time with both of these projectors with a broader range of material, but those of you who are Sony enthusiasts will find happiness form their latest offerings."

Kal

Brian Hampton · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 1174

Yeah,

Lack of convergence was a serious oversight.

I expect issues like that will continue to be refined. I went to look at the 60 inch SxRD rear pj set at best buy and I admit I think I could live with something like a Ruby-esque pj. The more likely scenerio is I just upgrade to a 9" pj but the SxRD pj's don't look all that dreadfull these days.

-Brian

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273

One of the things I've often wondered about LC in general is that its one macro panel (pixel) which uses electronics on a grid system to subdivide down to points of localized control. This is what makes near-field conditions a problem. When I conducted a little macro photography on the LCD panel in the HS50 LCD projector, I found panel misalignment, but often wondered if I was also seeing other malformations in the panels.

For instance, one could find one or two corners in perfect alignment, but as you moved along the grid misalignment being evident. I can only imagine this being even harder to control on LCoS. But, if they are offering convergence then they have the panels themselves on mechanical adjustment frames (I'm assuming).