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Speaker newbie with some questions
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redcorvette_85




Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 145
Location: Bothell, Washington


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject: Speaker newbie with some questions Reply with quote


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I'm thinking about starting to get into the audio side of things to go along with my crt addiction, but really I am pretty clueless as to whats good and whats junk and what the difference is between dipoles and bipoles ect... I know enough to stay away from white van speakers, but really thats about it. Is there anything similar to the crt primer found here on some other site to give me an idea on what to look for mostly speaker wise. It seems like a lot of the vintage stuff sounds as good as the new and I like bargain hunting.
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ADRIANKELLY




Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Anchorage Alaska


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a lot out there to choose from . We first need to know How much are you willing to spend ? Do you want 5.1 7.1 or multiple subs ? How big is the room ? Have you been to any local shops to listen to any name brand stuff ?
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Jaric00n




Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 140
Location: Nyack,NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) go out there with your favorite CD's or whatever...

let your hears be the judge
don't fall for the snake-oil!
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're cheap like the rest of us, I've noticed that by trolling craigslist, speakers seem to go dirt cheap. Buying old speakers in good shape that are from the 70s can often get you better results that from a lot of new crap that's out there. (IMHO)

I personally like the name brand stuff with dome tweeters that are vintage. JBL, EV, Energy, etc.

What I would do is audition the LCR speakers with music. THe rears really aren't as important speaker-wise since they are really only being used for 'echo' and effect information rather than music or voice.

Having been in a lot of rooms, the general consensus seems to be that the speakers should be located slightly above the ears when you're sitting, and dipolar speakers do seem to work better as they're not directly firing at you.

Whatever you do, don't install inwall speakers in the ceiling for any of the speakers. That will result in a very narrow cone pattern and give poor results.

As with video, audio is VERY subjective. Don't expect to hear (pun intended) the same recommendations twice from sales people if you decide to go new. The LCR speakers should be similar in sound, if not the same speakers. When I get my system fully set up, I was actually thinking of using the same speakers across the front, and maybe doubling up on the center channel so that I'm using two pairs total for LCR. Otherwise, keep one of the 4 speakers as a spare in a closet somewhere..Smile
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Curt.

Having the same speaker for LCR is ideal. Spectral balance is preserved across the front sound field that way. Speech intelligibility I feel is the most important aspect of the front speakers. True point source speakers that are reasonably phase coherent that have gradually narrowing HF dispersion are the best for this. W-T-W vertical array speakers, good ones, mimic true point sources as they have symmetric vertical dispersion. A really good example, and they sound fabulous with extraordinarily speech intelligibility, are the small Dunlavy SC-1s. I have a pair of these (in a bedroom system) and I will tell you they make outstanding LCR speakers. Someday I'm going to clone the SC1 to get a center channel and repurpose the Dunlavys for HT.

Whatever you do, DON'T LAY THE CENTER SPEAKER ON ITS SIDE! Please! You'll reverse the dispersion and undo the otherwise contiguous soundfield you'd get by having identical LCR speakers.

Right now I am doing a really tweaky approach - I have 3 Fostex FE166s in small boxes driven by a 5-channel gainclone (30W/ch) for my LCR speaks. The Fostex is a "full range" speaker driver, a 6.5" paper cone with a "whizzer" cone for high freqs. Quite high efficiency, for an 8 Ohm driver, it's something like 93~94 dB @ 2.83V. They will peel the paint with 30 Watts behind them. Not the most refined sounding speakers (they have a lot of simple harmonic distortion), but they are excellent with dialog, very natural sounding with voice. I had to design a custom eq network (a passive RC filter) ahead of the amp to do some response shaping, because the raw response was, well, too raw. End result is very good, though.

And cheap! The drivers were $65 each, and box cost me about $40 each. And they are unique and people think they are cool.

My rear speakers are crap computer speakers. They get the job done. The most important, by far are the LCR speaks. Then the sub. Very Happy

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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a pic of one of my Fostex FE166s in a simple closed box.


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fostex_fe166.JPG



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ADRIANKELLY




Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Anchorage Alaska


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can certainly save a lot of money by going the used or DIY route but personally I wanted a warranty and after endless ammount of research I choose to go with ASCEND ACOUSTIC . They are highly reguarded in the best bang for the buck crowd aver at the A** site . The customer service is beyond reproach and I personally spoke with the owner many times before and after my purchase .
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redcorvette_85




Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 145
Location: Bothell, Washington


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies guys. I am a craigs list junkie and will probably go the used vintage route for now. I looking to set up a 7.1 entry level system to get me started and I'll upgrade from there once I get a better understanding of what I like and whats out there. I currently have a hk avr 240 receiver, which may end up in my bedroom and I'll get something else. The current room I am using now is 14 feet wide for the screen wall by around 25 feet deep, but there is a very good chance I will be moving in the next 6 months to a year so that could change (hopefully building a house so I can design the theater room and finally get my 10pg up). Looking around on craigs list about all Ive found for older speakers is some late 70's jbl 4311 monitors for around 250-300 a pair, theres been 3 different sets up in the last couple days. Curious if this is the type of stuff I should be looking for. Also I am in no big hurry to run out and buy anything, it just sounds like a fun new hobby to get into, plus I like getting good quality at a good price. Most likely in the long run Ill end up with some mid level paradigms or something similar, I doubt Ill ever be a hardcore audiophile. Would love to hear some suggestions on some vintage model numbers I should keep an eye out for that would normally sell for a reasonable price. Thanks again Thumbs Up
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, 4311s are awesome speakers. I know them well, and two pairs will give you great LCR performance.
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADRIANKELLY wrote:
You can certainly save a lot of money by going the used or DIY route but personally I wanted a warranty and after endless ammount of research I choose to go with ASCEND ACOUSTIC . They are highly reguarded in the best bang for the buck crowd aver at the A** site . The customer service is beyond reproach and I personally spoke with the owner many times before and after my purchase .


These look like good speakers, very good value too. Their center speaker looks to be identical to their mains, which is good. However, they promote it being used on its side for the center. That is bad. Typical application error. Are you using it that way? If so, I'd encourage you to orient it upright, if possible, such as below the screen, angled up 15 degrees or so.

I love how they make a big deal about its excellent speech intelligibility. But look at the measurements - exactly what you'd expect from a well done WTW array - very good horizontal off-axis response, but typical abberations in the vertical response. This is due to interdriver interference patterns that exist in the vertical axial response, particularly in the xvr region, due to interdriver spacing relationships and their passband overlap. With this speaker placed horizontally, listeners who are off axis will get varying degrees of frequency response abberations due to being in either hotspots or suckouts. Also, that lobing behavior is then reflected off the side walls and acoustically sums with the mains in unpredictable ways.

The main virtue of a good WTW speaker is excellent horizontal axial response with symmetric vertical response. This virtue is undone when the speaker is put on its side for convenience!

Have a good one...

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cbe317




Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Thunderbolt, GA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr_ro_co wrote:


The main virtue of a good WTW speaker is excellent horizontal axial response with symmetric vertical response. This virtue is undone when the speaker is put on its side for convenience!

Have a good one...



Sorry, this simply is not true. Whatever WTW is, I don't know. Do you mean woofer tweeter woofer. If you do, LOL!


BTW, it's called "d'Appolito". Also it's MTM not WTW.


C.
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbe317 wrote:
mr_ro_co wrote:


The main virtue of a good WTW speaker is excellent horizontal axial response with symmetric vertical response. This virtue is undone when the speaker is put on its side for convenience!

Have a good one...



Sorry, this simply is not true. Whatever WTW is, I don't know. Do you mean woofer tweeter woofer. If you do, LOL!


BTW, it's called "d'Appolito". Also it's MTM not WTW.


C.


You obviously have no idea what you are talking about since you are having trouble with germane terminology.

MTM: Midrange Tweeter Midrange. If the drivers straddling the tweeter are woofers tasked with substantial bass bandwith, guess what's it's called? Bingo!

D'Appolito. Yeah, I used to call this arrangement such, about 20 years ago. Then about 19 years ago I learned that "D'Appolito" applies only to a very narrow type of symmetric array design:

1. Crosspoint approximately same freq as 1/4 wavelength interdriver separation.

2. There must be no excess phase between HF driver and LF drivers at listening location.

3. 3rd order Butterworth acoustic slopes on both HF and LF stopbands.

With this arrangement, the downward tilting interference pattern between the tweet and bottom woof and the upward tilting interference pattern between the tweet and upper woof overlap nicely, resulting in a very smooth, 0 dB, -3 dB vertical polar response, at the crossover frequency.

THAT'S what "D'Appolito" is. Got it? It is a narrowly defined VARIANT of speakers that use a symmetric linear arrangement of drivers around a tweeter. But every speaker ignoramus calls them "D'Appolito."

There are many reasons why it's undesirable to put a symmetric array loudspeaker on its side, but the main one is that the frequency response of the speaker will be quite different with different lateral locations of the listener. This is precisely because you are now dependent on the vertical polar response of the array, which is a function of the complex interference pattern along that axis, which is now placed along the horizontal axis by virtue of you laying the speaker on its side.

But hey, knock yourself out. It's not like the speaker ain't gonna work on its side. But if you don't think it matters, then go ahead and put the Left and Right speakers on their sides too. At least you'll have a consistent dispersion pattern across the LCR speakers. A messed up one, but at least consistent.

This is Loudspeaker 101 stuff. Go pick yourself up a copy of Dickason's cookbook and learn yourself up on it.

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cbe317




Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Thunderbolt, GA


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said in my PM to you. We just disagree. I'm not going to hijack this thread arguing.



C.
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Mark_A_W




Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

Mr Ro Co - MTM stands for MIDBASS TWEETER MIDBASS. I've been building speakers for 18 years and I've never heard of WTW. WMTMW yes, but not WTW.

But you are dead right about D'Appolito array. It was originally designed with a specific crossover type and dispersion characteristics. He then made a few changes and used LR crossovers (from memory).

I also have the Cookbook, the practical applications of the Cookbook, and D'Appolito's Testing Louspeakers.

I think you are mad if you buy speakers. Even a total newbie should build a kit - it's not rocket science, building a kit.

My system is here.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark_A_W wrote:


I think you are mad if you buy speakers. Even a total newbie should build a kit - it's not rocket science, building a kit.

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Ummm yes, if you're like me and can't cut a piece of wood in a straight line or hammer a nail in, then you should not build speakers.. Thumbs Up

Now, if you could SOLDER wood, then it could be a different scenario... Mr. Green
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Mark_A_W




Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why you buy a kit with boxes already made Curt. From Parts Express for example.
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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark_A_W wrote:
LOL

Mr Ro Co - MTM stands for MIDBASS TWEETER MIDBASS. I've been building speakers for 18 years and I've never heard of WTW. WMTMW yes, but not WTW.


How could you have so much experience and not have heard of WTW? What would you call two 15" woofs straddling a wideband horn? A MTM? Or a WHW?

We are splitting hairs here. I stopped using the term "midbass" a long time ago. I think the term is too specialized because it refers to a very, very narrow band (100 Hz to 300 Hz?). It's either a woofer or a midrange, based on the bandwidth it's tasked with. Only in large multi element systems where a fill driver is needed in that narrow mid-bass band would I call the driver a "mid-bass."

Basically, if the driver has more than 1mm xmax and an fs below 100 Hz, it's a freaking woofer. But you are welcome to call it what you want.

In this particular discussion I was talking about another poster's speaker that uses 6.5" woofers in a ported enclosure. The speaker has the bandwidth to stand on its own as a full range speaker. It produces real, usable bass. The 6.5" drivers have 3~5 mm xmax, with an fs of 50 Hz or so. I call those woofers. You can call them "mid-bass" drivers if you like!

Both you guys who have corrected my terminology were keen on letting me know of their vast experience with loudspeakers. That's great! Me too! I've been designing loudspeakers for 20 years. I did it professionally for a number of years. I have measurement gear, modeling programs, etc. I have a lot of unused drivers sitting in storage. I have a bookshelf full of reference texts. Yada yada yada.

The original poster can make up his own mind.

Steve

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Person99




Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that cracks me up more than the one-up-manship of videophiles is that of audiophiles. Laughing

Dave

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mr_ro_co




Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person99 wrote:
The only thing that cracks me up more than the one-up-manship of videophiles is that of audiophiles. Laughing

Dave


Define audiophile? Personally I can't stand them. Many of them are self-appointed acoustics experts. The don't listen to music. They just obsess over gear and endlessly nitpick sound quality. I call them music haters.

Steve

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Mark_A_W




Joined: 15 Mar 2006
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Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's kinda ridiculous Smile

I've never come across a DUAL 15" box with a horn in the middle. I built a folded horn once with a single 15" and a horn, and it was big enough. But yes you are right, it would be a WTW. You win.

But a 6.5" driver used from ~50hz to ~2400hz is a midbass, even the manufacturers (what's left of them) call them that.


I don't really "listen" to music anymore, the kids ended that. Anyway, I always liked building more than listening.
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