CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hello to everyone. And, a particular salutation to Curt from Quebec. I hope that this message finds each of you with all being well in these unprecedented times.

Over the course of the weekend, I attempted to hook up a TV set-top box to my Marquee 8500 via the Moome HDMI input card. Unfortunately, I was only met with a blurry image. However, during one of the many attempts, I did receive the following message - "VSync Out Of Range".

So, what is causing this? And, is it something within my control to regulate / address?

As such, I am turning to my usual cornucopia of knowledge and insight here from all of the veteran Jedi Masters. I am really happy that there is still some activity going on; I have many fond memories of lurking on this site and numerous challenges which I was obliged to contend when I first toiled in this domain 🙂

I have the output signal set to 1080i given that this was the rate recommended to me here on the forum by many members. I always wanted to run it at 1080p but apparently that is unrealistic for the projector to resolve.

Any and all insights are welcome.

Be safe.

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hmmmmm, silence; It must be my aftershave 😁

Someone please throw me a bone here; I cannot be the only onw whom has encountered this scenario.

Thank you again folks.

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary

First I would play with different output settings on the set-top-box.
From electronics side the 8500 is not worse by any means than a 9500, the later one just have bigger tubes. So I don't see why shouldn't you run 1080P on it if you wish...

**kal** · Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:55 pm Post subject:

Not sure what set top box you have, but make sure it's actually outputting 1080i at a refresh rate that the projector can resolve too. It's not just the resolution (1080i). Refresh rate matters too. While not common with set top boxes some sources will default to 24 or 30Hz. That's too low. You need to do 60hz or higher.

Kal

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hello Kal! It is great to hear back from you 🙂 I hope that all is well and all of your loved ones 👍

Thank You Very Much for having kindly taken the time to reply, it is most sincerely appreciated.

The set-top box is a most definitely set to output 1080i and I have selected a refresh rate of 24/50/60.

Based on the details provided in your reply, should I only choose 60Hz since it is the highest option available?

Please do let me know when you have a spare moment.

Cheers!

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hello to you as well gjaky. I do appreciate your input here as well. I am really glad that you chimed in. I would very much prefer to be running at 1080P but most of the experts here on the forum did not recommend that setting exactly because of the fact that the set only has 8 inch tubes and that the system is not ideal to effectively resolve 1080p.

Now, truth be told, there were a few exceptions with certain individuals such as yourself, but the great majority all seemed to insist that either 1080i or 720p was the best way to go.

Can you kindly advise whether you have personally run a Marquee 8500 at 1080p. And, based on your experience, your understanding is that the projector is then indeed capable of fully resolving a full high definition signal (?)

I am also very much looking forward to your reply.

Cheers!

**kal** · Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:57 pm Post subject:

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hi Kal. very well then, 60Hz it is then. I will remove both the 24Hz as well as the 50Hz options and attempt exclusively with 60Hz.

So, any thoughts on 1080p for the Marquee 8500... ?

Merci Beaucoup ⭐

**kal** · Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject:

Keep in mind that gjaky is a very experienced CRT projector user who does board level modifications and understands these units inside and out.

Your projector will certainly sync up to a 1080p signal. No problems there. To *RESOLVE* 1080p well on that projector will require an absolutely perfect setup however. That's a completely different thing. Setup needs to be top notch, both mechanical and electric. Things like getting right in there and making sure the tube magnetics are perfectly aligned become more critical. Like this: http://www.curtpalme.com/Astig.shtm

Try both 1080i and 1080p and see which you prefer. Both are 1920x1080 resolution. While it depends on how well the projector's set up, you'll likely find 1080i sharper and 1080p as having smoother motion.

Kal

Tim in Phoenix · Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 4379 Location: Phoenix

Guys

"So, any thoughts on 1080p for the Marquee 8500... ? "......an 8500 will certainly display it; not as glorious as a 9500. You have a rare upgrade path available; any Marquee will take nine inch tubes and lenses if you change out two metal plates. Contact me if interested, I have all of the needed parts here, used and new.

Tim at E-Tech

ehometech8022@yahoo.com

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hello again Kal. You are an absolute treat! Thank You for all of these invaluable insights, they are immensely appreciated. I may just go ahead and give 1080p a try, I am starting to be convinced that it may be worth the any of the associated wiles.

As far as the mechanical set-up is concerned, I have no problems whatsoever on that front. However, in regards to the procedure(s) outlined in the link that Curt elaborates, well that's another matter...

Let me dig into this and we'll see what transpires. I will write back.

Be safe, and, Many Blessings.

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hello to you as well Tim. It is nice to hear back from you. We actually corresponded many, many moons ago relative to an ECP 4500 which was the first ever projector which I had procured from Curt. If I recollect properly, you were a big fan of those units and felt that they were underestimated. At that time, I had the 4500 running at 720p so why not 1080p on the Marquee 8500 (?)

I would luv nothing other than to upgrade to a 9500, but, I simply do not possess the technical competence nor fortitude to execute such a task. This 8500 I have here has ultimately been unused and the pandemic has spurred me to spring it back to life.

Thank you for chiming in and extending your kind offer, it is greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

**kal** · Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:15 pm Post subject:

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary

Please let me explain a little bit regarding the 1080 i / P resolutions.
The interlaced scanning was widely introduced along with the commercial TV broadcasting services of the 1950's. At that time only vacuum tubes were available and the design engineers' hands were tied in what can be done effectively with the vacuum tubes.
The problem was that CRT display tubes were inadequate (awfull flicker) to show 24 FPS content like cinemas could do with the film (as the media). Video scalers were non existent and everything was done in 'analog' way.

Interlacing is thought to be an analog signal compression method which was a perfect fit for the needs of public broadcasting.
The idea was to sort the source picture to two half fields (pictures): one containing the odd lines the other containing the even lines of the original picture (the total number of displayed lines was a standardized of course). Sending the half fields (pictures) with a rate of X per second speed yield X/2 full fields (pictures) per second obviously. And this was the goal, since this way they could synchronize the vertical scan to the line frequency of the mains voltage (60 or 50Hz), resulting in simplier (cheaper) TV receiver circuits.
There is no free meal though, it is true that in this way the vertical refresh could be doubled from the original to avoid the flickering of the CRT, but the half fields are obviously not completely equal, therefore -depending on the visual content- a subharmonic flickering of the picture (eg. 25 or 30Hz) still can be seen.

As for 1080i or P you can see there is no signal degradation or loss between interlaced and progressive scanning per se, it is only the way how it is transmitted and displayed.
All details of the source material is available in both cases, only that with progressive scan it is displayed at once, while with interlaced scanning the full picture is constructed from two subsequent half fields.

At this point it is clear to see that it is pointless to debate whether the 8" tubes and lenses are fully capable of displaying 1920*1080 pixels or not, because whether you use 1080P or 1080i you send all the visual content to the projector anyway... (A 9" machine would be sharper of course but that is irrelevant from this point of view)

But there are other aspects too: electronics.

1080i 60Hz would equal to 1080P 30Hz as far as electronics are concerned, the horizontal scan rate requirement is about 33kHz (miraculously the double of the original SDTV scanrate).
1080P 60Hz contains 60 full frames, therefore its electronics requirements are effectively doubled compared to 1080i 60Hz, in fact the scanrate is even higher: 68kHz, due to various reasons I won't go into this time. With 1080P though you don't have the subharmonic pulsing of the half fields, you have to pay to this with the doubled requirements...

In my opinion the interlaced counterpart of a specific resolution is always more usable on a CRT than the progressive type of it (1080i 60Hz compares to 1080P 30Hz, 1080i 96Hz compares to 1080P 48Hz, etc...)

Even in the early 2000's high scanrate displays were not that common (only PC monitors could do this for cheap). Remember in 2000 an ECP 4500 (which was already an antique piece at that time) cost an arm and leg and were never intended to run really high scanrates on them, even if their spec sheets promoted otherwise... So back then it was totally reasonable to save the poor old projectors from overloading the circuits with high scanrates and such. But for a Marquee this is just a piece of cake...

If you'd have a 9" machine like the Marquee 9500 there is no question that you'd run 1080P on it, why? Because you can! Now this is why I told that from the point of electronics the Marquee 8500 is the same as 9500, only the tubes are different.
So what difference was left then?

All in all there are pros and cons both for displaying in 1080i60 or 1080P60, see for yourself which one you prefer that's all, your Marquee won't be bothered either way...

PS: I have a Marquee 9500, and I am experimenting with high refresh rate interlaced resolutions these days. I am somewhat sensitive screen flickering and even the flicker of 1080P 72 Hz (which is a rather demanding resolution for the Marquee) is bothering me. I find the screen more relaxed at 1080i 96Hz (=48 full fields per second), and tempted to push even 1080i 120Hz (=60 full fields per second), but I have problems generating this later one at the moment...

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Good evening Kal. And, much gratitude to you again for having kindly taken the time to provide me with all of the links for setting the unit up, it is greatly appreciated 👍

So, I started earlier today with the set-up and seem to have already encountered an "interesting" phenomenon; Upon completion of the mechanical set-up followed by some geometry adjustments with an active signal, I noticed that when displaying the crosshatch, some of the individual lines on certain grids are not perfectly straight....

What did I do wrong? I followed the instructions meticulously 😶

innof · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 193

Hello again to you as well gjaky. Your detailed explanation is very much appreciated - Thank You Very Much.

I did indeed choose to go with 1080p, and, as was outlined in my previous post I have begin the set-up process but seem to have already encountered something unusual.

I am hoping that someone here on the forum has also encountered this situation and can shed some light on resolving the issue.

Cheers!

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary

In such cases screen shot of the issue helps us to have better understanding on what might be the root cause.

**kal** · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:23 pm Post subject:

Tim in Phoenix · Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 4379 Location: Phoenix

Guys

"If I recollect properly, you were a big fan of those units and felt that they were underestimated. At that time, I had the 4500 running at 720p so why not 1080p on the Marquee 8500 (?)"

I never dealt in ECPs after my relocation to Arizona, they were a basket of problems starting with the tubes going soft focus in a few hundred hours and other reliability nightmares.

8500s will show 1080p all day; if you want near single pixel resolution you can go part way with other 8500 lenses, or full tilt with nine inch upfit.

If you are in the US then your 8500 can come here to Phoenix for the full rework and helpful mods; fan noise mod etc.

Not everyone appreciates these were $33,000 machines and start crying when new tubes are mentioned LOL

**kal** · Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:36 pm Post subject:

Per his first post he's in Quebec Canada.

The machines may have been $33K new, but that's completely irrelevant. Yes, they are well built as you would expect for something of that original value, but all that matters when it comes to selling them (or parts for them) is today's value. Things like add-ons or new tubes need to be priced accordingly if they are expected to sell at all, and given that people can barely give away CRT projectors these days (even high end 9" machines) the price people are willing to pay for addons or new tubes is subsequently also very low.

Kal