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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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 Link Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Walter, I'd rather would leave the VNB's as they are.
there are more broken VNB's around from such modifications than running ones.
put all the attention to the VIM and casrefully select non modified VNB's and you will have a
much better result than fiddling around on the VNB's
you have been warned,
Michael
| walteritaly wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | To the handful that are still doing CRT, try this upgade:
On the neck boards there are two 33ohm 1/2 watt carbon resistors (R23/R27). Remove and replace with 33ohm 1 watt Carbon Film. Do not use metal film or any other type of resistor. It must be carbon, either old fashion carbon or carbon film only. They carbon requirement is for high voltage circuit there.
This resistor upgrade (1 watt) should have been required for a CRT grid drive circuit, where a higher wattage resistor was also upgraded on the later VDC design, but still not to 1 watt requirement. Sony got it right on the G90 (1 watt). |
Thanks Mike, my 9500 is from 1997, can i also modify these neck boards?
can you add 2 more 1/2 watt resistors in series to the originals? what improvements do you make by making this change? |
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pureaudio
Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 37
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| Link Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | i know all this and i am sure everyone is very grateful you put in this much time helping out other forum members but that doesn`t answer my question honestly.
i meant have you seen a pj 9 inch solely (still don`t understand why you had an 8 inch but ok) with the changes made on the boards to make them resolve the hd signal better and bring the noise floor down.
what`s your opinion about mike parkers mods for example on the marquee, have you seen them or his work on the g90 (though i am not sure he continued working on the g90) or gjakys work/mods on the marquee.
again kal i am not here to offend you if you feel like i did and can only applaud the many contributions you made for the crt community and still do be it to a lesser degree and wish you nothing but the best with your brewery endeavour. |
Gjaky made some very nice work on the Marquee, other than that im not aware of anyone that have actually made any decent mods.
Today you can buy a JVC RS1000/ RS2000, 80% of all image quality parameters is superior, the only benefits of a CRT today is motion if done right like 1080P 72fps, and absolute black level if you run Gjakys last mod and know how to calibrate it, so you can display a 0,5% IRE on screen and still maintain a black level that allow you a on off contrast above 300000:1.
JVC will have better ansi contrast around 200:1, where the JVC will never get over 100:1, light output on CRT is limited to around 400 ansi lumen, so its not possible to calibrate it to a big screen with a decent light output, to follow any HD standard.
There will always be some that wont have the means to follow the development, and capabilities to get the most of it, MP and Tim seems good examples of some that have lost track of time. Calibration of digital today is not as simple as the calibration textbook make it sound, so it will not be uncommon to see a pro calibrated JVC projector that is far from performing anywhere near its potential, often worse than factory settings despite the calibration report state otherwise.
No matter if your in one camp or the other, very few left in the CRT camp, you should do yourself the favor and be a little humble to the fact that you most likely dont know ½ as much as you think you know about the potential of both CRT and Digital projection, most likely you never seen the best CRT, and just as likely that you never seen a Digital perform properly.
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 83
Location: Italy
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| Link Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | Walter, I'd rather would leave the VNB's as they are.
there are more broken VNB's around from such modifications than running ones.
put all the attention to the VIM and casrefully select non modified VNB's and you will have a
much better result than fiddling around on the VNB's
you have been warned, |
Hello Michael thank you, now I'm using neck board modified by Draganm, I think he only replaced the capacitors with some better ones, so it seems on sight.
I also replaced all the other cards of the pj with those modified by Draganm, everything seems to work well even if I have not yet gone beyond 1080i 72hz.
I think I want to make the tubes last long enough
they have 200 working hours.
I also have the original boards which maybe don't reach 500 hours.
do you have any advice for VIM?
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Walter,
there is no need to spend money on modificaions using the current video chain.
The VP50 pro is not up to date with current processors.
if you're happy with the performance you're enjoying right now, leave it.
Michael
| walteritaly wrote: | | nidi wrote: | Walter, I'd rather would leave the VNB's as they are.
there are more broken VNB's around from such modifications than running ones.
put all the attention to the VIM and casrefully select non modified VNB's and you will have a
much better result than fiddling around on the VNB's
you have been warned, |
Hello Michael thank you, now I'm using neck board modified by Draganm, I think he only replaced the capacitors with some better ones, so it seems on sight.
I also replaced all the other cards of the pj with those modified by Draganm, everything seems to work well even if I have not yet gone beyond 1080i 72hz.
I think I want to make the tubes last long enough
they have 200 working hours.
I also have the original boards which maybe don't reach 500 hours.
do you have any advice for VIM? |
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| pureaudio wrote: | | dvh99 wrote: | i know all this and i am sure everyone is very grateful you put in this much time helping out other forum members but that doesn`t answer my question honestly.
i meant have you seen a pj 9 inch solely (still don`t understand why you had an 8 inch but ok) with the changes made on the boards to make them resolve the hd signal better and bring the noise floor down.
what`s your opinion about mike parkers mods for example on the marquee, have you seen them or his work on the g90 (though i am not sure he continued working on the g90) or gjakys work/mods on the marquee.
again kal i am not here to offend you if you feel like i did and can only applaud the many contributions you made for the crt community and still do be it to a lesser degree and wish you nothing but the best with your brewery endeavour. |
Gjaky made some very nice work on the Marquee, other than that im not aware of anyone that have actually made any decent mods.
Today you can buy a JVC RS1000/ RS2000, 80% of all image quality parameters is superior, the only benefits of a CRT today is motion if done right like 1080P 72fps, and absolute black level if you run Gjakys last mod and know how to calibrate it, so you can display a 0,5% IRE on screen and still maintain a black level that allow you a on off contrast above 300000:1.
JVC will have better ansi contrast around 200:1, where the JVC will never get over 100:1, light output on CRT is limited to around 400 ansi lumen, so its not possible to calibrate it to a big screen with a decent light output, to follow any HD standard.
There will always be some that wont have the means to follow the development, and capabilities to get the most of it, MP and Tim seems good examples of some that have lost track of time. Calibration of digital today is not as simple as the calibration textbook make it sound, so it will not be uncommon to see a pro calibrated JVC projector that is far from performing anywhere near its potential, often worse than factory settings despite the calibration report state otherwise.
No matter if your in one camp or the other, very few left in the CRT camp, you should do yourself the favor and be a little humble to the fact that you most likely dont know ½ as much as you think you know about the potential of both CRT and Digital projection, most likely you never seen the best CRT, and just as likely that you never seen a Digital perform properly. |
who said i proclaimed to be an expert!
it`s quite obvious i don`t know everything perhaps not even a 10th so why this remark because i never claimed otherwise.
i just don`t like a digital pj be it calibrated or not.
btw i`m betting mike parker and tim have seen more digital pj then you have.
_________________
1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| walteritaly wrote: | | nidi wrote: | Walter, I'd rather would leave the VNB's as they are.
there are more broken VNB's around from such modifications than running ones.
put all the attention to the VIM and casrefully select non modified VNB's and you will have a
much better result than fiddling around on the VNB's
you have been warned, |
Hello Michael thank you, now I'm using neck board modified by Draganm, I think he only replaced the capacitors with some better ones, so it seems on sight.
I also replaced all the other cards of the pj with those modified by Draganm, everything seems to work well even if I have not yet gone beyond 1080i 72hz.
I think I want to make the tubes last long enough
they have 200 working hours.
I also have the original boards which maybe don't reach 500 hours.
do you have any advice for VIM? |
Walter,
these modifiactions are ok. Dragan does a fine job.
when it comes to VIM advice, I'd ask GJaky,
Michael
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 83
Location: Italy
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | Walter,
these modifiactions are ok. Dragan does a fine job.
when it comes to VIM advice, I'd ask GJaky,
Michael |
Thanks Michael, I will follow your advice,
I live on the Swiss border and I work in Switzerland, more precisely in Lugano, so we are close enough.
I have this great passion for CRT and I would like to step by step bring my marquee to its full potential.
small steps at a time.
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| walteritaly wrote: | | nidi wrote: | Walter,
these modifiactions are ok. Dragan does a fine job.
when it comes to VIM advice, I'd ask GJaky,
Michael |
Thanks Michael, I will follow your advice,
I live on the Swiss border and I work in Switzerland, more precisely in Lugano, so we are close enough.
I have this great passion for CRT and I would like to step by step bring my marquee to its full potential.
small steps at a time. |
Yeah, same here.
been improving my Marque as well.
It's great having Gabor, he really knows the ins and outs of the Marquee.
I live 20 mins south of the german border (Canton Aargau).
the best you can do at first is getting the procesing up to date.
Thanks to 4K UHD , the older Lumagen Radiance processors doing 'just' 1080P are perfect
for our Marquees. needs to be either a plus model or one of the max 1080P in 4k out ones.
which can be perfectly adjusted to our Marquee needs.
I friend of mine bought one from Italy used for a very good price.
I myself have the XS+ one. (needs to be able to go up to 200MHz bandwidth for 1080P 72/75)
Get the latest Moome HDMI card, as they also improved. maybe there's another discount going on
on Marquee ones in the near future (Kal?)
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 83
Location: Italy
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | | I myself have the XS+ one. (needs to be able to go up to 200MHz bandwidth for 1080P 72/75) |
Yes we are on opposite sides of Switzerland
I tried the 1080p 60hz which is the limit of the vp50 (124Mhz)
and are slightly beyond the bandwidth of the Marquee, (120Mhz).
at this resolution the image loses incisiveness therefore I prefer to keep the 1080i 72hz.
In addition to replacing the processor, I will also have to work on pj to make it do at least 180Mhz of bandwidth.
I'm also interested in making a resolution and a more subtle focus on the screen.
I would also like a good linearity of the light emission from the tubes and homogeneous to the various IREs
This is what I want to work on.
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17860
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| pureaudio wrote: | | most likely you never seen the best CRT, and just as likely that you never seen a Digital perform properly. |
This is very true for everyone and something I experienced over and over again, especially back in the CRT days and correctly setting up a CRT projector for maximized performance is a lot more daunting than digital. I remember a lot of CRT projector owners (or want to be owners) would fixate on CRT projector rankings, arguing over which is better or worse, but many of the setups I saw were poorly done and not maximizing performance. To get there with CRT is quite difficult. You can easily spend hours just doing something like zone astig (magnetic work) to get perfection. Many (most?) owners wouldn't even try doing those adjustments.
Kal
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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
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pj-toso
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 69
Location: Norway - Oppland
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | pureaudio wrote: | | most likely you never seen the best CRT, and just as likely that you never seen a Digital perform properly. |
This is very true for everyone and something I experienced over and over again, especially back in the CRT days and correctly setting up a CRT projector for maximized performance is a lot more daunting than digital. I remember a lot of CRT projector owners (or want to be owners) would fixate on CRT projector rankings, arguing over which is better or worse, but many of the setups I saw were poorly done and not maximizing performance. To get there with CRT is quite difficult. You can easily spend hours just doing something like zone astig (magnetic work) to get perfection. Many (most?) owners wouldn't even try doing those adjustments.
Kal |
Setting up a projector regardsless of which technology to get it correct is hard.
I have seen countless of crts and digitals setup by so-called professionals and so-called calibrators that havent been near to show how good they could have been looked.
It is not enough to have probe and software program and tweak until you have a good results on the graphs in the program. You really have to understand the technology, the particular model of that technology and understand what the controls do to the image. I have seen to many projectors with good result in Calman-reports that have been far from the potential because the calibratiors have not understand how to approach the calibration controls. Still most calibrators do not understand gamma properly, and the importance of properly calibrate the 0-5% IRE.
_________________
Disclaimer: My postings are subjective and not facts.
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pureaudio
Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 37
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| pj-toso wrote: | | kal wrote: | | pureaudio wrote: | | most likely you never seen the best CRT, and just as likely that you never seen a Digital perform properly. |
This is very true for everyone and something I experienced over and over again, especially back in the CRT days and correctly setting up a CRT projector for maximized performance is a lot more daunting than digital. I remember a lot of CRT projector owners (or want to be owners) would fixate on CRT projector rankings, arguing over which is better or worse, but many of the setups I saw were poorly done and not maximizing performance. To get there with CRT is quite difficult. You can easily spend hours just doing something like zone astig (magnetic work) to get perfection. Many (most?) owners wouldn't even try doing those adjustments.
Kal |
Setting up a projector regardsless of which technology to get it correct is hard.
I have seen countless of crts and digitals setup by so-called professionals and so-called calibrators that havent been near to show how good they could have been looked.
It is not enough to have probe and software program and tweak until you have a good results on the graphs in the program. You really have to understand the technology, the particular model of that technology and understand what the controls do to the image. I have seen to many projectors with good result in Calman-reports that have been far from the potential because the calibratiors have not understand how to approach the calibration controls. Still most calibrators do not understand gamma properly, and the importance of properly calibrate the 0-5% IRE. |
Reading on this forum its obvious there is very little useful experience, it was a CRT forum, and it never got the hardcore digital users attention. So if those who claim to know a lot would just add some objective documentation, showing the effect of mods and tweaks, and digital calibration it would be gold, however its hard to find other than subjective opinions and someone recommending changing 2 resistors with no additional information.
Please dust off some reference measuring equipment start with a gray scale and RGB gamma tracking, to go all hardcore measure 0-20% IRE with 1% steps, illustrate how your CRT is clipping black, and how your digital most likely have significant ringing which introduce massive color banding out of black, its hard to take someone serious who is running a CRT blend with a old blend unit who struggle to resolve 6 bit, and likely cant do a 1:1 1080P pixel mapping.
Post your settings and calibration files, then its often possible to objective predict how messed up the image really is, and no need to struggle with different preferences and subjective opinions.
Last edited by pureaudio on Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 83
Location: Italy
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| pureaudio wrote: | | its hard to take someone serious who is running a CRT bland with a old blend unit who struggle to resolve 6 bit, and likely cant do a 1:1 1080P pixel mapping. |
Hi, if I read on this forum it is because I am curious and I want to learn ... I am very passionate about it.
If my pj is bland I am here to study how the right way to make it less bland.
I am convinced that very competent and passionate people write here from where to learn many things.
I can read here but also on other forums,
important is to share experiences and move forward together
in the end this is what matters and gives satisfaction.
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| walteritaly wrote: | | pureaudio wrote: | | its hard to take someone serious who is running a CRT bland with a old blend unit who struggle to resolve 6 bit, and likely cant do a 1:1 1080P pixel mapping. |
Hi, if I read on this forum it is because I am curious and I want to learn ... I am very passionate about it.
If my pj is bland I am here to study how the right way to make it less bland.
I am convinced that very competent and passionate people write here from where to learn many things.
I can read here but also on other forums,
important is to share experiences and move forward together
in the end this is what matters and gives satisfaction. |
Walter,
he's not talking about you. he's talking about someone having a bland BLEND.
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 83
Location: Italy
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| Link Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | | he's not talking about you. he's talking about someone having a bland BLEND. |
Yes Michael now i understand 
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | I have made a small guide how to do this modification a while ago, for the sake of simplicity I just copy here:
Needed parts:
-2pcs. C3M0065090D SiC MOSFET from Wolfspeed (Farnell: 2630832)
-2pcs. 3.3nF 1kV film capacitor (eg. Farnell: 1890188) 6.8nF 1kV
Procedure:
-First remove the old MOSFETS (Q3, Q5, Q7) -be careful with the clamping spring that pushes the MOSFETS to the heatsink
-Install a short jump wire between Q7’s D-S terminals
-Install the two C3M0065090D MOSFETS to Q3 and Q5 (I suggest to mechanically align them to the heatsink with the clamps and only solder them in after that.)
-Remove the original C4 and C6, install the two 3.3nF capacitors instead.
The MDC1000A limits the gate drive voltage to 12V, increasing this to 15V would benefit still, but meh...
I'll PM you regarding the schematics shortly. |
I have to revise the procedure because on this weekend I have done this modification on a 50-002003-07 HDM from 1997. this was a transition version between classic non ultra HDM and Ultra HDM. The board was working prior, and was tested up to 152kHz scanrate.
After the modification it did not work at all, then I figured out that the resonant capacitors were too low, somehow I mixed the thing up in my notes... The combined capacitance in a non Ultra HDM (beyond 60kHz and short retrace) is 2.52nF, while in the non ultra HDM it is 3.57nF. So two 3.9nF in series gave clearly too low value, some kind of protection mechanism kicked in and the HDM was not starting.
Two 6.8nF 1kV capacitors have to be used, which give 3.4nF combined.
To my biggest surprise the HDM did not work very well even with the correct capacitors, with the built in test patterns it worked well up to 62kHz, but nothing beyond that.
Knowing that the board was working before I wanted to keep the troubleshooting simple, so changed the small signall board to a latest revision and it worked straight away. The small signal boards are pretty much the same even from the begining, only the programmable logic (U525, U528)revisions changed to some extent. So I put back the original daughterboard and changed the programmable logic ICs only.
The original board had labels of 14-P303525-01P (U525) and 14-P303528-01P (U528) -these had the problem descirbed above.
I had "HDM U525 V2.0" and "HDM U528 V2.0" on an other board, putting these in made the board working again, the latest revision (which I have at least - 2010 vintage) HDM had "HDM U525 V2.0" and "HDM U528 V2.1" these did work too of course.
Interesting find...
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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jbltecnicspro
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512
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| Link Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Question for the folks in here. Right now, it seems that I'll never have a future with CRT projection. It is what it is. Before I left, I had a G70 with only an HDFury 2. Will a JVC D-ILA projector (RS-45 or newer) match the contrast of a G70 without gamma correction? I obviously couldn't run true black as I never had gamma correction to compensate for the black crush. But even then, the blacks were a lot blacker than my old Yamaha DPX-1200.
I'm currently running a Sanyo PLV-Z2000. It throws a decent enough image and I have no intention of upgrading it any time soon. When we get our own place again, I'll be considering another projector setup.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12026
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Link Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jbltecnicspro wrote: | | Will a JVC D-ILA projector (RS-45 or newer) match the contrast of a G70 without gamma correction? |
My RS45 is better than my G70 was. The G70 was not ideal nor perfectly set up, but the RS45 beats it in some ways.
And you can do this for a bargain. I just found an RS46 for sale an hour away -- for $400!! If I wasn't so satisfied with my RS45 I would definitely go pick it up...
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Reading this thread gave me an 'aha' moment just now.
When CRT was insanely popular 15 years ago, everyone wanted a home theater, and looking at the gallery on the main site, everyone participated, from a low end Sony 1031 to those that could afford a 9" set early on. There was a general camaraderie going on, and while there were the pro calibrators who select few could afford, by and large there was a lot of encouragement and assistance for those getting into the hobby.
I think about 7-8 years ago it turned ugly on occasion, where the entry level guys were sneered at a bit, and the tweakers that really got into the tweaking and modding end of things started bashing each other. Some forum members (not just here)got downright nasty, to the point where some got booted from here.
Personally, I've never had my projector professionally tweaked, and have never had interest in getting that extra .001% of performance out of my system by spending 200 hours 'under the hood'. I still enjoy my HT and wish those that only want to tweak will continue to do so, but without going batshit crazy if they don't agree with someone else's observations. That's what made me lose interest really, the 'fun' of HT has been lost to many.
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4379
Location: Phoenix
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| Link Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Guys
"There will always be some that wont have the means to follow the development, and capabilities to get the most of it, MP and Tim seems good examples of some that have lost track of time."
CRTs as a business are not something I can spend a lot of time on. I went from selling four projectors a month (2006) to two projectors all of last year. MP said he was all done with mods but it sounds like he still has a slight interest; I doubt it will lead to anything.
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