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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
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Location: NJ USA
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 Link Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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The top high end projectors from 20 years ago were things like the Sony G90 and Barco 919. The image quality on these still pees all over the $2000 ViewSonic, Epson and BenQ projectors of today, even the faux 4k HDR models. It's not even close.
JVCs early D-ILA projectors like the DLA-S10 were never high end. JVC never released many high end models. The few they did though, are very nice. I saw their DLA-SH7NLG once. I'm still drooling.
The idea that people spend $60,000+ on high end commercial projectors simply to get high light output at the expense of everything else is not true. If all you wanted was uber-high brightness, there are far cheaper ways of achieving it. You could buy 4 of those $600 3000 lumen data projectors from Best Buy and run them through a $200 2x2 video wall processor, for example. You choose to pay 30x more for precision and quality.
I've tested over 50 projectors in my home environment (for work related reasons) . In my experience, this is where the extra money goes on high end projectors (regardless if DLP, LCD or Lcos):
- Color precision. They have the budget to spend time with each unit at the factory to ensure they arrive with near perfect color calibration. They have amazing user controls for color too. A perfect image is one where every pixel is displayed to the exact color spec of the source material. You can't have a great image without great color.
- Contrast. I'm not talking about full on / full off which is only a measure of black levels on an all black screen. I'm talking real world contrast. Look at Barco's current high end home theater line up. It's 3-chip Thor model claims 1000:1 ansi contrast. That is immense on a 15,000 lumen projector. You'd never get anywhere close to that on a sub-$10,000 home theater projector. You'd be lucky to see 150:1 when watching a movie on some of these "500,000:1 or "infinity:1/full on / full off" devices.
https://www.barco.com/en/product/thor#modal-1
High end manufacturers rarely inflate the sequential contrast ratios because their projectors are usually bought by knowledgeable buyers who know better.
- Large precision all glass lenses. Cheap projectors use low quality plastic lens elements. Mid-range (circa $8000) projectors use fixed low grade glass lenses. High end devices offer a choice of large precision glass optimized for different room sizes. Better glass means superior image clarity with less bleeding of color/light between pixels. It's essential for color precision and high real world contrast
This is one of the lenses for my Barco projectors. It's serious kit and the difference is very noticeable on-screen:
- Calibrated lumens. On high end devices they can deliver near perfect color at 3,000-25,000+ lumens.
With the right screen, they can deliver genuinely decent lights on performance in a living room or in a dark theater. I got my first Barco projector to use as a TV replacement when I lived in Manhattan. I dug out my old 10ft wide black screen to demo this point to someone in this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPsdyLOfuQg&t=35s
- Chip size. Cheaper units typically use 0.47"-0.7" chips. High end units usually use 0.95"-1.5" chips. Larger chips allow for larger screens sizes before the image starts to degrade. Having extra large screens is the key reason to still use projectors given that you can now get 98" 4k flat screens for as little as $8000. I guess it's s comparable issue to the tube size on CRT projectors.
- High quality processors built-in or included. Anyone who has used one of the amazing processors that Curt sells will have some idea of how much difference a decent processor can make to color, clarity and motion handling. The high end projectors I've seen often (but not always) offer this kind of performance out the box.
- Flexibility and upgradability. I own ultra short, short, medium, long and ultra long throw lenses for some of my projectors. High end unit often have upgradable input boards which extends their useful life. 10 years after it's release, people were adding 3d and HDMI inputs to their Sony G90s.
- Build quality. High end units are usually built like tanks and designed to run 24/7 for 100,000+ hours with little to no maintenance (aside from bulbs). I've never had a problem with any of the high end projectors I bought (in good condition). Every cheap projector I ever bought new randomly broke on me.
So.... basically... I'm saying you have to see a projector for yourself, in the environment it will be used in, to know anything about the image quality. The way some people choose by simply comparing the manufacturers stated sequential contrast ratio and rated lumens is nonsense. Most of what matters is not written in their spec sheets.
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kal
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kal
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Link Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Zebra wrote: | - Contrast. I'm not talking about full on / full off which is only a measure of black levels on an all black screen. I'm talking real world contrast. Look at Barco's current high end home theater line up. It's 3-chip Thor model claims 1000:1 ansi contrast. That is immense on a 15,000 lumen projector. You'd never get anywhere close to that on a sub-$10,000 home theater projector. You'd be lucky to see 150:1 when watching a movie on some of these "500,000:1 or "infinity:1/full on / full off" devices.
https://www.barco.com/en/product/thor#modal-1 |
Sure, but now you're comparing a still in production Barco projector that sells for half a million dollars, not a 20 year old digital, so the comparison isn't really the same anymore.
Today for under $5K USD the JVC DLA-X7900 will get you 301:1 ANSI (measured). Not 1000:1 but it's 100x times cheaper.
I agree with all the other points, though things like flexibility with different lenses is not overly useful to a home owner who picks up a an old commercial digital. More often than now a homeowner wants a short throw but the projector came with something longer than they need.
| Quote: | | - High quality processors built-in or included. Anyone who has used one of the amazing processors that Curt sells will have some idea of how much difference a decent processor can make to color, clarity and motion handling. The high end projectors I've seen often (but not always) offer this kind of performance out the box. |
I actually sell them but I get what you're saying (other than CRT projectors I run everything else on this site).  Never heard of a digital with a 17x17x17 3D LUT built in however. I know some do have fairly advanced CMS's but nothing that advanced?
| Quote: | | Most of what matters is not written in their spec sheets. |
Yup
One thing you didn't mention is noise. Commercial projectors tend to be much noisier not only because of the added heat they need to get rid of but because they need to run long/hard and be reliable. They're often positioned outside the viewing room.
Again, I wouldn't want a 20 year old digital in my HT. Gimme a high end CRT (like the ones you mentioned) or a recent digital. Doesn't even have to be that recent. My JVC RS56 is 7 years old and I don't feel I gave up anything going from CRT to it.
Kal
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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
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Location: NJ USA
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| Link Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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High end is high end. Regardless of which tech, the best displays of 20, 15 or 10 years ago are better than today's cheap projectors while costing the same or less.
As it happens, 20 years ago the best projectors were CRT and the best CRTs still hold up today. Not only do they hold up on image quality, they are still superior in a number of key areas. They have disadvantages too obviously. Size and weight, for example.
Size and noise are definitely potential issues with high end projectors. It's one of the reasons why I'm a fan of the ProjectionDesign projectors (and their Barco or Digital Projection branded variants). They're typically half the size of other comparably powerful projectors.
One of my favorite 3-chips I owned was a Barco F82. It put out 10,000 lumens in dual lamp mode and wasn't a whole lot larger than my JVC RS35. It fit on the same shelf.
I found the removable lenses very useful as I've moved 3 times in the last 10 years. I literally wouldn't have been able to use my fav projectors in two of my homes if I didn't have short throw and long throw options. There are very few high quality off the shelf short throw projectors. Runco made one. Sony makes one now but that's it.
Most of the time, you mount projectors on the ceiling and don't worry about size or noise. There have been a few where it was a problem. My Sony SRX-S105 was amazing but far too big and hot to live with... The image quality was sufficiently amazing to make it worth some effort for serious enthusiasts though. Really nice lenses.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Link Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Zebra wrote: | High end is high end. Regardless of which tech, the best displays of 20, 15 or 10 years ago are better than today's cheap projectors while costing the same or less.
As it happens, 20 years ago the best projectors were CRT and the best CRTs still hold up today. Not only do they hold up on image quality, they are still superior in a number of key areas. They have disadvantages too obviously. Size and weight, for example. |
I would agree with that. I'd rather have a Barco Cine 9 (not the 909/919 as it's noisier ) than a $1000 new cheap digital from this year.
Kal
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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
Posts: 87
Location: NJ USA
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| Link Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Zebra wrote: | High end is high end. Regardless of which tech, the best displays of 20, 15 or 10 years ago are better than today's cheap projectors while costing the same or less.
As it happens, 20 years ago the best projectors were CRT and the best CRTs still hold up today. Not only do they hold up on image quality, they are still superior in a number of key areas. They have disadvantages too obviously. Size and weight, for example. |
I would agree with that. I'd rather have a Barco Cine 9 (not the 909/919 as it's noisier ) than a $1000 new cheap digital from this year.
Kal |
I'd rather have a Cine 9 than a lot of mid-range projectors too. Those things were ahead of their time with an unbelievable level of future-proofing. If you look at the source material most of us were using back then (DVDs and laserdiscs at best), it's amazing what sort of resolutions / bandwidth they were capable of displaying and resolving.
They're still capable of some of the best contrast projection has to offer too. It's still the only projection tech that lights pixels individually. They may not reach the extreme black and white levels that modern digital projectors achieve (using wiregrid polarizers or a dynamic iris) but their range in between is amazing.
My Ikegami TM20-90RH crt broadcast monitor still has the best contrast I have ever seen on a display and I have a 77" Oled in my living room and number of JVC D-ila devices in my attic. It's amazing technology (aside from the size and geometry issues).
Imagine a 150" diy 4k rear projection display using four Barco 919s....
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kal
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| Link Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Zebra wrote: | | It's still the only projection tech that lights pixels individually. |
Well, they don't really... the raster is turned on/off as it shoots across the phosphor and how fast it can turn on/off is completely based on the speed of the neck card electronics mostly and the phosphor persistence. That's part of the beauty of CRT: There are no pixels. Even at reasonably lower resolutions than what a CRT can sync to (different from what it can resolve) it wasn't able to do something like true on/off/on/off pixels. Even though my Barco Cine 8 could easily sync to 1080p, I ran it at 1080i (still 1920x1080 pixels, just done in 2 passes) as it's half the bandwidth which means it had more time to do that turning on/off for a sharper image and actually resolve something closer to 1920 pixels across. Put a 1080p pattern on screen that has on/off/on/off pixels on most CRT projectors and you mostly get a blurred mess. (But that's ok as we don't watch test patterns).
| Quote: | | Imagine a 150" diy 4k rear projection display using four Barco 919s.... |
Wouldn't want that for the grid lines between the 4 never mind trying to calibrate 4 to the same colour space.
Cue Tim Martin who will now tout the virtues of his Blenzilla (edge blending) solutions: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTforSale_HighPerformance_BlendZilla.shtm
Kal
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Zebra wrote: | | I'm a fan of the ProjectionDesign projectors (and their Barco or Digital Projection branded variants). |
I have a local friend here who is in the same boat as you, he is by the way an optical engineer by profession, and he modifies these older dual lamp Barcos with custom light tunnel (often loosing the 2nd lamp capability) to increase contrast ratio for HT use.
He also emphasized (like you) on local forums that DMD size matters the most, as some light scatters all the time from the edge of the mirrors. For that matter mirror perimeter to mirror area ratio matters the most for good contrast ratio.
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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Zebra wrote: | | I'm a fan of the ProjectionDesign projectors (and their Barco or Digital Projection branded variants). |
I have a local friend here who is in the same boat as you, he is by the way an optical engineer by profession, and he modifies these older dual lamp Barcos with custom light tunnel (often loosing the 2nd lamp capability) to increase contrast ratio for HT use.
He also emphasized (like you) on local forums that DMD size matters the most, as some light scatters all the time from the edge of the mirrors. For that matter mirror perimeter to mirror area ratio matters the most for good contrast ratio. |
He sounds like my kind of enthusiast! There is certainly a lot you can do to improve image quality on projectors if you start off with brightness to spare. Optical engineering is a very useful background for this stuff. I'd be interested to hear some of his idea on improving contrast to compare notes.
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kal
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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Zebra wrote: | | It's still the only projection tech that lights pixels individually. |
Well, they don't really... the raster is turned on/off as it shoots across the phosphor and how fast it can turn on/off is completely based on the speed of the neck card electronics mostly and the phosphor persistence. That's part of the beauty of CRT: There are no pixels. Even at reasonably lower resolutions than what a CRT can sync to (different from what it can resolve) it wasn't able to do something like true on/off/on/off pixels. Even though my Barco Cine 8 could easily sync to 1080p, I ran it at 1080i (still 1920x1080 pixels, just done in 2 passes) as it's half the bandwidth which means it had more time to do that turning on/off for a sharper image and actually resolve something closer to 1920 pixels across. Put a 1080p pattern on screen that has on/off/on/off pixels on most CRT projectors and you mostly get a blurred mess. (But that's ok as we don't watch test patterns).
| Quote: | | Imagine a 150" diy 4k rear projection display using four Barco 919s.... |
Wouldn't want that for the grid lines between the 4 never mind trying to calibrate 4 to the same colour space.
Cue Tim Martin who will now tout the virtues of his Blenzilla (edge blending) solutions: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTforSale_HighPerformance_BlendZilla.shtm
Kal |
You don't have grid lines in projection video wall and they're run through edge blending boxes which take care of color and black level matching. The ones I've seen have all been seamless.
On some of the more sophisticated set-ups, the edge blending / color matching process is automated using cameras. It's very cool to see.
It's worth remember that even the best projectors have variances in brightness between the edges and the center. This is often compounded if high gain screens are used and yet, it's not usually perceivable without equipment to measure it. It's not as hard as it sounds to adjust color and brightness to the point where projection walls look seamless.
And, most high end pro grade projectors (especially Barco) have more in depth and sophisticated color management controls than consumer grade hardware.
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kal
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Zebra wrote: | | You don't have grid lines in projection video wall and they're run through edge blending boxes which take care of color and black level matching. The ones I've seen have all been seamless. |
Correct - hence the Blendzilla link I posted. Most are too expensive / complicated for the average person who "just wants a big picture".
Kal
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | You can tell him to sign up here if you guys want to share notes/information and want to do it in the open with others.
If it makes sense, I'll even create a separate sub-forum for commercial digital projectors by splitting the existing one into:
Digital Projectors (consumer grade)
Digital Projectors (commercial grade)
Kal |
I'll ask him. Just lately, he expressed that he is not finding any deep technical discussions regarding DLP technology on international forums, so he feels himself alone...
BTW his first venture with DLP projector modification was with a DPI TITAN HD250 (3 chip, 720P) LINK
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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
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Location: NJ USA
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| Link Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | kal wrote: | You can tell him to sign up here if you guys want to share notes/information and want to do it in the open with others.
If it makes sense, I'll even create a separate sub-forum for commercial digital projectors by splitting the existing one into:
Digital Projectors (consumer grade)
Digital Projectors (commercial grade)
Kal |
I'll ask him. Just lately, he expressed that he is not finding any deep technical discussions regarding DLP technology on international forums, so he feels himself alone...
BTW his first venture with DLP projector modification was with a DPI TITAN HD250 (3 chip, 720P) LINK |
I understand how he feels. It can feel like a lonely endeavor sometimes although that's often beneficial too.
The abundance of great deals on used high end projectors (that I could never afford to buy new) is somewhat dependent on there being limited competition among buyers on eBay.
Still, it's a little surprising, given the insane lengths some people will go to create fully blacked out home theaters, that there aren't more discussions on forums about how to optimize contrast on bright projectors. You'd think high contrast alongside high brightness would be the ultimate goal for projection. Instead there's been this very one-sided focus on black levels.
More recently though, with the interest in HDR, it seems like people are finally starting to understand the importance of brightness and it's role in contrast. Some are even finally abandoning those absurd self-imposed rules on brightness like those "you shouldn't aim for more than 12FL or it will be uncomfortably bright and cause migraines or spontaneous combustion etc".
So definitely ask your friend to join up on this forum. I'd be interested in hearing what he's done and in sharing some of my own projects. There's defiantly a few others who'd be interested too as I found out recently.
BTW, I've owned a few of the Titan 1080p-250 and 1080p-700 projectors. They are nice devices. Built like tanks. You can drive some truly enormous screens with them and that is what home theater is all about IMO.
Everything is better on a 20ft wide screen!
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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| Link Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well I made him aware of this thread and he was happy about the fact that he is not alone...  Although he also had his concern about that if too many people know about these projectors then prices will go up.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
Posts: 87
Location: NJ USA
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| Link Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Well I made him aware of this thread and he was happy about the fact that he is not alone... Although he also had his concern about that if too many people know about these projectors then prices will go up. |
Recently, I've seen a bunch of amazing bargains vanish off ebay. I'd been keeping an eye on a few for a while. Now I'm wondering if it's my fault for talking about them on another forum...
I was waiting for a nice D-vision 35 scope to come down just a little more before grabbing it. But it looks like someone ate my lunch....
I currently use an anamorphic lens for scope movies. I like what they do but I was looking forward to getting the same benefits without the loss in sharpness.
That's just another area where CRT projectors have an advantage over digital. The ability to simply not project scan lines for black bars is awesome.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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kal
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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AnalogRocks
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
Would have purchased but they want way too much for shipping.
Kal |
Yeah shipping is the killer on that one. 
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Zebra
Joined: 02 Jul 2020
Posts: 87
Location: NJ USA
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| Link Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | kal wrote: |
Would have purchased but they want way too much for shipping.
Kal |
Yeah shipping is the killer on that one. |
If you think that's a bargain... You guys should check out this deal on a Runco VX-33i.
https://www.ebay.ca/?mkcid=1&mkrid=706-53473-19255-0&siteid=2&campid=5336656890&toolid=20008&mkevt=1
He's only asking for twice the price that it cost new in 2010 and it still has half it's bulb life left. You wouldn't have to buy a new expensive Xenon lamp for 900 hours...
The $400 "economy" shipping is the icing on the cake....
For that price it would have been an insult if he offered to hand deliver it himself for free and gave me his car and his wallet and his shirt. You have to wonder about the mental state of some of these eBay sellers.
Obviously people can make mistakes but surely.... after it hasn't sold for three months +.... you'd start thinking "maybe I over-estimated it's value". "time to knock off around 98% or so". Not these guys. They believe it's just a matter of time...
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