CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

**Curt Palme**

OK fellow Canucks and others, I added two runs of 14/2 to FINALLY put my HT and multiroom system and room lights on more than one 15 amp circuit.

The problem is, my breaker panel is full and I can't afford to upgrade to a 200 amp panel right now.

What's the rule of adding wiring to a breaker panel? It would stand to reason that if I'm in my HT cranking it up, the rest of the house will use minimal current, so could I simply double up the wiring going to say an upstairs bedroom, in other words run the new wiring into the same breakers as an area of the house that won't be used while I'm using the theater?

Thanks!

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

Ummmm.... I'm not an electrician, i leave that to dad. But, take a circuit finder, like this one http://www.circuitdetective.com/?gclid=CN-wgoeO3ooCFQlISgod_yRCzw

Then you can roughly calculate the load on each circuit. You may find that you can safely add the lines to a circuit.

Otherwise, bite the bullet, add the panel, enjoy your ht in safety. 8)

ecrabb · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject:

I checked that very issue with a couple people before I upgraded the 100A service in my old house to 200A. Depending on your area, it may or may not be allowable to tap the same breaker with two circuits. Code aside, there's nothing really "unsafe" about doing so... it could just be a nuisance if, for instance, you've got all the lights and equipment on the HT, and somebody plugs a hair dryer into a bedroom receptacle on the same circuit. There were several breakers feeding multiple circuits on my old panel before I upgraded.

Curt, is your service panel old? Some newer panels have 1/2 space "mini" breakers to double the number of circuits in a panel... i.e. 20 spaces could be 40 circuits with the smaller breakers.

Also, FYI - I replaced the service myself in my old house and it really wasn't that difficult. I read up like hell and made sure I knew what I was doing. I got everything ready... tools, generator (for work lights), fasteners, panel, breakers, etc. The utility came out and disconnected the service drop to the house and three hours later, I had a new 200A service panel mounted on a nice, new mounting panel for security, phone, automation, etc. Cost me probably all of $350. Quotes from pros were in the $1500 neighborhood.

Another interesting note. I asked the utility company if they needed to replace the service drop since I was upgrading service... Get this - he told me that even though I was going from 100A service to 200A service, I'd probably never, ever even come close to actually using even 100A. He told me that they fuse the drop itself so you can't burn it up. He said they'd actually come out and refuse it a few times if I blew it... before they'd upgrade the drop to a heavier gauge. I lived there for a couple more years and it was never an issue.

SC

dculberson · Joined: 05 Jan 2007 Posts: 211 Location: Columbus, OH

jask · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 10165 Location: kamloops BC

I am going to check with a buddy tonite but I am pretty shure 2 wire on a single breaker in a residential panel is a no-no. your house is new enough that it has a decent panel.Pick up a couple of the previously mentioned double breakers in a single slot... (throw them in on the same side of the panel), and share them with the furnace room lights or ensuite bath... some low use breaker.

jeffcott

My experience is from the 'US NEC' point of view. I have fully re-wired our house including new service panel and converting the original panel into a sub panel, with permits and inspections. As stated previously, the cost is not the issue as the time and effort is more significant.

I am an old hand at two-channel audio and am just getting into PJs. From the point of view of 'Quality Power', making sure of the quality of the grounding infrastructure for your home is quite important. In your case, Curt, you might consider checking to make sure that your current Panel has adequate capacity for the combined loads that you are putting on it, and if that is not a problem, then simply rewire to give yourself two free slots (including your AV circuits) which will give you a combined 220V leg, and then use this to feed an added sub panel for all of your AV circuits. As long as you have plenty of capacity, it is an easy way to add more slots and is well within the rules of the NEC.

Being new to this forum, now all I need to do is find the right place to post my HT questions. Surprised

)

ronholm · Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Posts: 12111

Don't for any reason run two wires into one breaker... It is just bad form...

What brand is your service box?? most brands sell "cheater" breakers that take up less space in the panel... In the electical industry they are known as "tandem" It would allow you to put more breakers in the same place... I don't know if any one mentioned that yet.. I just quickly looked through the thread...

Worst case scenario... so long as you have at least a 100 amp service... Buy a 60 amp or even less service panel and set up a sub panel .. full of places to run stuff.... I do this all the time for customers... Nothing to it...

Careful though... lots of juice.....

A tandem or cheater breaker would look something like this

jeffcott · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:02 am Post subject:

ronholm wrote: What brand is your service box?? most brands sell "cheater" breakers that take up less space in the panel... It would allow you to put more breakers in the same place... I don't know if any one mentioned that yet

I do not know about the 'rules in Canada', but from my experience in the US, using 'piggy-back breakers' will get you a big disapproving frown the the electrical inspector. Yes, they are available for most brands of panels, and I believe that as long as the panel is within load capacity that there is no real problem. However, as you also suggested, the sub-panel route is much cleaner. Additionally, with a sub-panel, it may be possible to configure with a preferential ground which will give you a really clean install.

ronholm · Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Posts: 12111

On most newer boxes the rules are 42 CB's... On some boxes that are designed for 30 a handful of tandems is code...

or at least the inspectors never have a problem with a couple tandems poked in there....

I finish a lot of basements and this has never been a problem..... I don't do a sub panel unless I have to.. I think it is cleaner with one box... it is certainly less expensive....

Of course though if curt has an old stablock or federal box A sub panel is the only way to go... Those damn breakers are expensive and the boxes are dangerous and hard to work with/on

koegmaster · Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 42 Location: madison wi

Curt I build homes for a living, If u have square D QO u can but I would recomend to go to a 20 amp breaker. If u have cutler hammer than I dont think that will let u do a double tap. The only thing is it has to be solid wire and a solid wire not a solid and a stranded. The othe option is to get a cheap square D homeline sub panel ($20-$30) and then u would have 8 more spaces. Hope I helped

Chuck27 · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject:

My claim to fame is a year as an apprentice electrician (right here in Canada) before I decided to become an Engineer instead.

I've run into this issue many times, and the preferred (code-compliant) way to do it is as ronholm says and replace an existing breaker with a larger one, run the appropriately-sized wiring to a small (4-circuit) breaker panel, and use of of those breakers for the original circuit. This will provide 3 new open breakers for you to use.

In fact, this is exactly what I did for my home theatre, I replaced a 15A twin (that formerly controlled the lights and outlets in what has become the theatre) with a 30A twin, ran 8-gauge wire to a new panel in the theatre, and voila.

Make the wiring job as tidy as possible. In my experience, neatness equates with competence in the eyes of a town inspector, should it come to that, or even the fire department when they do their safety audits.

Chuck

bomrat · Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 117 Location: chicago

well, i am the poster child for circuit abuse...

with multiple computers, ass loads of tools, jaccuzi, home theater, air conditioning, etc, etc, etc running, and i haven't blown a 100 amp fuse yet in my main panel...

just keep your gauge low and you shouldn't have the voltage drop which raises the current draw...

AFryia · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 12:29 am Post subject:

I don't know if these are still legal? I don't think they are.

ronholm · Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Posts: 12111

local codes are what you have to build by.. The national Code stuff is often just used as a guideline for the local government..

A couple cities I work in are still on 1997 books..

Yeah.. that means copper instead of PEX on the plumbing side.. Makes chit $$$$$ these days...

I have never had a problem with a tandem so long as you are not over the alloted amount of slots per the amperage of your box...

With newer boxes they tend to frown on these devices because most newer boxes have the space to fit the "legal" amount of full size breakers...

At least that is my experience....