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Increasing projecting size with lumagen

 
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SPL800



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Location: Israel


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Increasing projecting size with lumagen Reply with quote


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Recently I set my lumagen HDQ with output rez 1080p 48Hz.
I had to increase H size to 99 on my 1209. But still 5 cm is missing from left and right. I can move the beast a few cm backwards. But trying before that. To solve with exact timing porchs.
What values on my lumagen can increase the H size of the projecting image?
(i can also tweak the amplitude pot on SMPS but would prefer to aviod that).

Now I知 using
VTOT 1125
VACT 1080
VSYN 5
VFRN 4
HTOT 2640
HACT 1920
HSYN 44
HFRN 528
VRATE 47.95


Thanks
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3872
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, your HTOT is already huge. Have you tried reducing your HFRN while keeping you HTOT the same. That will by design increase increase the back porch.

craigr

_________________
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Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3872
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you run default horizontal timings and center the image; what percent overscan do you get on the sides?

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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SPL800



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Location: Israel


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: problem solved Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
If you run default horizontal timings and center the image; what percent overscan do you get on the sides?

craigr


Hi Craig

Thanks for your help.
Problem solved perfectly.
I have managed to increase the picture with the Size function in the lumagen.

Where do I find the overscan percent on the side?

BTW lumagen was in pass throw mode therefore didn稚 succeed increasing the picture size at first.

I find so many questions here about resolution and timing values.
Is there any place that we can understand how changing different timing/porch influence the picture?

Thanks
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: problem solved Reply with quote

SPL800 wrote:

Is there any place that we can understand how changing different timing/porch influence the picture?

Thanks


A while back I was trying to summarize this in a nutshell, see here:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=401093#401093

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
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SPL800



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Location: Israel


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: problem solved Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
SPL800 wrote:

Is there any place that we can understand how changing different timing/porch influence the picture?

Thanks


A while back I was trying to summarize this in a nutshell, see here:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=401093#401093


W O W it痴 for Wikipedia Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Ok. Now that I知 at 1080p48Hz and picture is with the correct portion of the screen (no over scan). Also the ringing is almost unseen.
1.Maybe I will try 72Hz?
2.If so. Can you advice what exact timing should I set on my Lumagen HDQ?

Thanks
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At 1080p 72Hz make sure your Barco switch in to high scan rate mode. Then something around 2400 total H pixels would maximalize the raster usage, such timing is working on the Marquees and NEC XGs from my experience.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
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SPL800



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Location: Israel


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
At 1080p 72Hz make sure your Barco switch in to high scan rate mode. Then something around 2400 total H pixels would maximalize the raster usage, such timing is working on the Marquees and NEC XGs from my experience.


My Barco 1209 can do high scan mode.
On my lumagen at exact timing setup - do I keep all values the same as 1080p 24Hz and change only H total to 2400?

Now I知 using
VTOT 1125
VACT 1080
VSYN 5
VFRN 4
HTOT 2640
HACT 1920
HSYN 44
HFRN 228
VRATE 47.95

Thanks
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decrease HFRN by ~100 and also decrease HTOT to say 2440. That should result in a neat timing for 1080P 72 Hz
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3872
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you running analog or DVI-D as your output. The HDQ cannot support 1080p 72 through DVI-D, but it can through RGBHV.

If you set the Lumagen to 1080p 72Hz the Lumagen menu will show that it is doing it, but you won't actually get 72Hz out of your DVI-D output. You can veryfiy this in the projector.

So only try 1080p 72Hz if you are running analog RGBHV.

Also a couple notes. Keep HTOT as low as possible. Making it larger uses more bandwidth and will soften the picture. So find where you get full image without compression with a small HTOT. This is also a trade off with raster rigning.

After using the "size" in an HDQ check that your HACT is still 1920. If I correctly recall, the "size" on the HDQ simply adjusts the HACT pixels.

If you want to run a 72Hz scan rate you can use 818x1920 @ 72Hz. This is good for 2.35 movies so that has you at least 50% covered. A quirk with the HDQ however is to maintain 1:1 pixel mapping you must set the input aspect to 4x3 and the output aspect to 2.35... again I'm pulling from distant memory. The HDQ is difficult to setup for 1:1 mapping, but to get a great image it must be done. It's even sometimes a bit difficult to properly maintain or get 1:1 on 1080p, but it's worth it.

Years ago I wrote tons about this on this forum and AVS. You can probably search for threads.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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SPL800



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Location: Israel


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
Are you running analog or DVI-D as your output. The HDQ cannot support 1080p 72 through DVI-D, but it can through RGBHV.

If you set the Lumagen to 1080p 72Hz the Lumagen menu will show that it is doing it, but you won't actually get 72Hz out of your DVI-D output. You can veryfiy this in the projector.

So only try 1080p 72Hz if you are running analog RGBHV.

Also a couple notes. Keep HTOT as low as possible. Making it larger uses more bandwidth and will soften the picture. So find where you get full image without compression with a small HTOT. This is also a trade off with raster rigning.

After using the "size" in an HDQ check that your HACT is still 1920. If I correctly recall, the "size" on the HDQ simply adjusts the HACT pixels.

If you want to run a 72Hz scan rate you can use 818x1920 @ 72Hz. This is good for 2.35 movies so that has you at least 50% covered. A quirk with the HDQ however is to maintain 1:1 pixel mapping you must set the input aspect to 4x3 and the output aspect to 2.35... again I'm pulling from distant memory. The HDQ is difficult to setup for 1:1 mapping, but to get a great image it must be done. It's even sometimes a bit difficult to properly maintain or get 1:1 on 1080p, but it's worth it.

Years ago I wrote tons about this on this forum and AVS. You can probably search for threads.

craigr


Hi

1. I知 running from source Hdmi to splitter (for hdcp) then HDMI to DVI-D to lumagen HDQ then RGBVH to 1209. So I think I can
get 72Hz.

2. To what lowest value should I decrease the HTOT and then fix it with POS and SIZE?

3. If I would like to go 818X1920 @72Hz. should I change only VACT from 1080 to 818?

Thanks
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3872
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Yes. Since you are using the analog RGBHV outputs on the HDQ you should get real 1080p 72Hz. The analog output on the HDQ is excellent so it should be very nice.

I would still recommend setting up 818x1920 72Hz for scope sources though as you will get a sharper image. It uses less bandwidth than 1080p 60Hz so it will be your sharpest resolution.

2) I'll leave that to gjaky and other Barco experts. However, you can find the optimal setting by experimentation in reducing your HTOT and HFRN until you find something optimal. The smaller HTOT the less bandwidth you will use and the sharper the image. Te more HTOT you use the more likely it is that you will see raster ringing on the left of the screen.

3) For 818x1920 @72Hz use the same timings as 1080p 48Hz except decrease your VTOT to ~855 or so (you can increase if the image is clipped or decrease if you don't need that much). If you leave VTOT at 1125 you will get no benefit because the bandwidth used will be the same as with 1080p. Reducing VTOT will send fewer scan lines to the projector and thus require less bandwidth which will make the image sharper.

Get it?

Best,
craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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SPL800



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Location: Israel


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject: . Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
1) Yes. Since you are using the analog RGBHV outputs on the HDQ you should get real 1080p 72Hz. The analog output on the HDQ is excellent so it should be very nice.

I would still recommend setting up 818x1920 72Hz for scope sources though as you will get a sharper image. It uses less bandwidth than 1080p 60Hz so it will be your sharpest resolution.

2) I'll leave that to gjaky and other Barco experts. However, you can find the optimal setting by experimentation in reducing your HTOT and HFRN until you find something optimal. The smaller HTOT the less bandwidth you will use and the sharper the image. Te more HTOT you use the more likely it is that you will see raster ringing on the left of the screen.

3) For 818x1920 @72Hz use the same timings as 1080p 48Hz except decrease your VTOT to ~855 or so (you can increase if the image is clipped or decrease if you don't need that much). If you leave VTOT at 1125 you will get no benefit because the bandwidth used will be the same as with 1080p. Reducing VTOT will send fewer scan lines to the projector and thus require less bandwidth which will make the image sharper.

Get it?

Best,
craigr


Thanks Craigr

If I understand right high refresh rate (72Hz) reduce ringing but we pay on image quality (becouse of higher bandwidth needed)?

So what is best?
Is there any optimal Rez that we should all use (1080p 59.94Hz)?

One more thing can you tell me please if I知 doing the right order of setup in the lumagen?
1. I set default Rez (menu 027 ok for 1080p)
2. Then I choose refresh rate manually. (48Hz/72Hz/59.94Hz).
3. in order to fix over scan I play with POS / SIZE in the lumagen
Thanks
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other way, high scan rate makes ringing more apparent.

It all boils down to personal preferences.
Me, for example I value smooth motions on screen (integer times framerate of input) above all, but at 1080p this will lead to relative high scanrate, and bandwidth demand. As stated at high scanrates the raster ringing is more aparent, but raster ringing has no adverse effect on projector performance per se, it is just annoying to see. To make raster ringing disappear you have to use even higher (video) bandwidth signal.
The effect of video bandwidth is little difficult to catch, on one side high bandwidth stresses the CRT amplifier more but you'd hardly notice that, but if you have proper bandwidth it will give you more POP or WOW to the screen, but it is hard to point a finger on it.
For scope movies it makes sense to use 1920x818 72Hz, which ease on the bandwidth and scanrate needs, but you have to sacrifice on the 16:9 movies.
So you have to set you priorities and set your timings according to that.

I make no compromise and use full 1920x1080 72Hz, and do everything to make my projector more capable in handling that signal.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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SPL800



Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Location: Israel


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I make no compromise and use full 1920x1080 72Hz, and do everything to make my projector more capable in handling that signal.[/quote]

I would like to do that also.
how do i make the projector to work in this Rez?
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