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Barco Reality 909 Geometry for 16:9 screen

 
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Flash



Joined: 08 Aug 2017
Posts: 15
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:39 am    Post subject: Barco Reality 909 Geometry for 16:9 screen Reply with quote


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Hi,

Iím setting up a reconditiomed Barco Reality 909 for a 16:9 screen, mostly to watch stuff in 16:9, 1.85:1 and 2.39:1 . Iíve moved the projector 15% closer to the screen than recommended by the manual, in order to use as much of the raster as possible. The screen if 2640mm wide, and the projection distance is 3260mm. To fill the screen horizontally Iíve had to increase the horizontal size to the maximum setting of 99, which I assumes means Iím using the whole raster. My question is, why to I do with regard to the vertical sizing? Do I leave it at the default of 50, increase it to the max of 99, shrink it down to fit inside the screen? Thereís also an option to blank out the top and bottom of the raster.

Thanks


Craig
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Tim in Phoenix



Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4226
Location: Phoenix


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

This BluRay disc has good reference test patterns, including a 16:9 grid and if that grid just fills a 16:9 screen then your geometry is set correctly. I don't know what V size value that will mean for you, just set it to fill the height. Your 1.85 and 2.35 signals will not fill the screen height, they aren't supposed to.



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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15848
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Barco Reality 909 Geometry for 16:9 screen Reply with quote

Hi Craig,

Tim in Phoenix wrote:
This BluRay disc has good reference test patterns...

Here's a link to this Blu-ray disc on Amazon.com (it's discontinued so you have to buy from a 3rd party): https://amzn.to/2VI1uRy

This free one's good too: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/948496-avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration.html

We sell one here as well: http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_Calibration_Disc.shtm

Flash wrote:
Iíve moved the projector 15% closer to the screen than recommended by the manual, in order to use as much of the raster as possible.

Good stuff. Not sure if 15% if where it ended up or if you did 15% because the manual stated, but normally the best throw for any CRT is determined by doing the following:

- Put the projector on a cart or simply leave it on the floor so that you can move it.
- Display something that fills the screen entirely (like a grid test pattern).
- Using only the green (middle) tube, look into the tube and increase the image width on the tube face until it is around 1/8" to 1/4" from the edge of the white phosphor. Under no circumstances should you allow the image to go off of the white phosphor surface!
- Move the projector back and forth until the image fits your screen.
- THAT is the correct throw distance for optimal phosphor usage.

I've always owned Barcos myself and there's absolutely no issue with having the RASTER go off the tube face, as long as the IMAGE doesn't go off the tube face.

See: http://www.curtpalme.com/TubeCondition_PoorInstall.shtm

On some, in some resolutions/refresh rates you may find the raster at the extreme left edge to be a bit unstable so you may want a wider raster than image to ensure the raster stabilizes before it starts painting the image. You may find too that the closer you get the image to the tube edge, the less sharp it is. It's a trade-off: Increase phosphor usage (i.e. more light output) or sharpness? I've always gone for more light output so that I can turn down the contrast.

This guide is useful in helping explain terminology: http://www.curtpalme.com/Focus_and_Mechanical_Aim1.shtm

If you want to get fancy I put this together specifically for Barcos (advanced users only): http://www.curtpalme.com/Barco_Setup_Quick_Reference_Guide.shtm

Quote:
My question is, why to I do with regard to the vertical sizing? Do I leave it at the default of 50, increase it to the max of 99, shrink it down to fit inside the screen?

You set it to get a true 16x9 image like Tim said. ie: If the screen is 16x9 and you set projector width such that the tube face is completely used in terms of width and then set your throw such that the screen is completely filled in terms of with, show that same 16x9 pattern and then set the projector vertical size to fill the screen height. For example, if your screen is 96" wide and the 16x9 text image exactly fills that, you want your height to measure 54".

Quote:
Thereís also an option to blank out the top and bottom of the raster.

If you want to. It's usually used to blank out unused raster that may be going off the tube face. This is just to make sure that by accident you don't move the image off the tube face. Remember that the raster is the canvas on which the image sits. The image can be anywhere within the raster.

Good luck!

Kal

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Flash



Joined: 08 Aug 2017
Posts: 15
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal, thatís really useful. Yeah I worked out the distance using that method, with the projector configured for front floor, then shifted in onto the ceiling once I had the test pattern filling the screen. The only bit I wasnít sure about was aligning the test pattern on the raster through the tube face, where I really struggled to see where the edges of the forbidden zone were. Is the forbidden zone actually a different colour from the rest of the phosphorous, or is it just a measurement in from the edge? Suspect I may have misinterpreted the guide in regard to this. In the end I just made it as big as possible and kept it a little off the edge. Havenít tried projecting anything other than the test pattern yet.

Another query. I really struggled to calculate the mounting height using the Barco forumila of CD = SH/2 + B - A. For starters I couldnít find an installation manual for the 909, so was using the manual for the Cine 9. Ultimately I had to build a wooden platform and break out the measuring tape! Afterwards once the test image was properly centered on the screen, I went back to the formula and figured out that CD = SH/2 - B - A gave exactly the right answer! Is there a typo in the manual or something? I was tearing my hair out with that!
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Flash



Joined: 08 Aug 2017
Posts: 15
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful resource you guys have here BTW.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15848
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear you like the resources here! Lots of people helping provide useful content over the years. Not used much these days of course but it was fun to pull together... (I haven't had a CRT projector since late 2012 so some of the info's starting to fade...) Wink

Flash wrote:
Yeah I worked out the distance using that method, with the projector configured for front floor, then shifted in onto the ceiling once I had the test pattern filling the screen.

Perfect. That's the best way. Much less dangerous too than blindly setting it without looking into the tube(s).

Quote:
The only bit I wasnít sure about was aligning the test pattern on the raster through the tube face, where I really struggled to see where the edges of the forbidden zone were. Is the forbidden zone actually a different colour from the rest of the phosphorous, or is it just a measurement in from the edge?

If you can see the entire image on the phosphor when you peer into the tube, you're good. If you can't see part of it, that part is off the phosphor and could cause damage (through heat).

Quote:
In the end I just made it as big as possible and kept it a little off the edge.

That sounds fine.

Quote:
Havenít tried projecting anything other than the test pattern yet.

I usually like to do this raster/image setup with an actual test grid pattern instead of using the internal projector patterns. While on Barcos you can throw up a test grid pattern that is the same resolution/refresh rate as your current signal, I find they're sometimes off as compared to what an actual signal shows.

Quote:
Another query. I really struggled to calculate the mounting height using the Barco forumila of CD = SH/2 + B - A. For starters I couldnít find an installation manual for the 909, so was using the manual for the Cine 9. Ultimately I had to build a wooden platform and break out the measuring tape! Afterwards once the test image was properly centered on the screen, I went back to the formula and figured out that CD = SH/2 - B - A gave exactly the right answer! Is there a typo in the manual or something? I was tearing my hair out with that!

Ignore all that stuff. There are some mistakes. I know that in my last Barco (basically a Cine 8 Onyx special edition) there were mistakes in the built in help screens too!

The best mounting height for any CRT projector is to mount the projector exactly half way up the screen and tilted slightly forward if floor mounted (or tilted slightly backwards if ceiling mounted). This way the image on the tube face is completely rectangular and not a trapezoid. It maximizes phosphore usage as you're shooting completely straight and square on to the screen.

But in most cases of course that sort of mounting height puts the projector 3-4 feet off the floor so nobody does it as given CRT projector throw you're probably eating up the best seat in the house (front row middle). For example, here's my CRT projector on the floor as a temporary setup (it's not heigh enough or tilted forward enough, but it was just temporary as my digital projector was on order):



So instead most people ceiling mount and hang it as low as they can without getting in the way. That's what I did. Because of my projector's fairly short throw it puts it directly above my first row of seating which is a good thing as I can actually drop it a fit farther as there's no danger of someone walking underneath and bump your head. Here's a pic of this from my previous house/home theater:



Kal

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Flash



Joined: 08 Aug 2017
Posts: 15
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is it possible to adjust the rasters while playing from a source DVD? When I got into the raster adjustment it automatically displays the test grid.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15848
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't remember the exact steps or keystrokes as it's been since late 2012 since I was last using a CRT projector... Sorry! Or maybe I used to use the internal patterns for rough setup and then confirm with an external source? Not sure!

Kal

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ElTopo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1509



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please always do raster setup from the connected source.
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Tim in Phoenix



Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4226
Location: Phoenix


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Kal


Nice milk crates! LOL Im using Home Depot orange buckets. Five of them.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15848
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that was temporary. Wink

There's been a digital up on the ceiling now for 6 years. Just started on my 3rd bulb! About 6200 hours in so far as this thing gets pretty good use.



Kal

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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah, quality man cave right there. Props. Love the in-home brewery feature.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it me or is the screen tilted towards the projector?
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15848
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! My screen is not tilted. More pics here if you're curious!: http://theelectricbrewery.com/basement

Kal

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Flash



Joined: 08 Aug 2017
Posts: 15
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElTopo wrote:
Please always do raster setup from the connected source.


Is it possible to get the source playing during raster adjustment on a Barco 9Ē, and how do I make that happen?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23729
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put the brightness at 100, and contrast super low, but probably not to 0. You may or may not need to feed an input signal into the set to light up the raster, as there's no manual g2 adjustment on the 909, it's automatic. that should do it.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23729
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, GENERALLY speaking, if your raster shifts are at 50, you should be pretty centered. There are V shift adjustments on the V board for R and B, but I've never had to raster shift any Barco, as that's pretty much done for you. Image shift within the raster- that's almost always mandatory.
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Flash



Joined: 08 Aug 2017
Posts: 15
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Iíll set them back to 50.

I see people speaking about ďdeleting blocksĒ, assume that this is a way of returning the projector to its default settings, prior to reconfiguring it. How do I go about deleting blocks?
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