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Gjaky's mods test results
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:37 pm    Post subject: Gjaky's mods test results Reply with quote


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Hi All,

I have just ordered "THE MOD" from Gjaki.

I'll post here the before and after test shots. (green tube only)

I'll attach also the test pattern that i've used.

test pattern is 1080x1920 and projector is projecting 1080x1920 50P

It'll take a while but I'm looking forward to it.

regards,

Ron



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BEFORE test pattern on the screen
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green on screen.jpg



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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my parts have arrived.

i'll keep you informed about the progress



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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1049



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to the before and after pics
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23663
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first pix aren't really accurate from what I am seeing, as the contrast level on the 'before' pix are way lower than the mod pix. Everything has to be on a level playing field to do a proper before and after comparison, but I too am looking forward to the pix.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
The first pix aren't really accurate from what I am seeing, as the contrast level on the 'before' pix are way lower than the mod pix. Everything has to be on a level playing field to do a proper before and after comparison, but I too am looking forward to the pix.


Also, in the before picture some sort of scaling was going on in the source side (seen by the interference pattern on the 1:1 horizontal lines), which was confirmed later by Ron too.

AFAIK there are no modded pictures posted yet.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi it's me again:

I have installed all the boards and this is what the test pattern in the beginning of these thread looks like now.

1080p 50fps HDMI from MacBook Pro 2016 to Moome v3 external via vga to the projector

Although it doesn't look fully resolved I see clearly a better picture then before. It looks cleaner and sharper, especially with video/film material.

regards,

ron.



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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Moome Ext v3 plays a significant role(off -hehe) here...
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here some more images about what the mods to the HDM do to the image.

The image in the previous post has been taken after the HDM mods.

In the first clip you see the shaking in the image Look carefully at the black letters before doing his mods to the HDM

in the second clip the same but after the mods done (snubber network and some other mods to the gate of the mosfet Q20)

you can see that the shaking is reduced.

both files are downloadable here:

https://cernbox.cern.ch/index.php/s/o8vzBvPg3gTleQ1

Regards,

Ron.
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gabor,

so what can we do about the moome?

I tried with a via output of my macbook pro from 2006 but the image was much less sharp then with the moome.

I'm indeed astonished that the roll of is quite significant.

Ron.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1049



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been impressed with Mac's as source components.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2626
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ronaldus wrote:
Hi Gabor,

so what can we do about the moome?

I tried with a via output of my macbook pro from 2006 but the image was much less sharp then with the moome.

I'm indeed astonished that the roll of is quite significant.

Ron.


Sometimes the output filtering on the DAC is too aggressive which will cause roll off. If you do a bit of search here, you'll find that the Moome ext box was not regarded to be as good as the internal ones.

If you have access to a fast oscilloscope (>300Mhz) at work for example, I could instruct you how to test the bandwidth of the Moome box that would give a clue.

I am not very happy with other laptop's (HP, DELL) VGA out performance either, it's intel to blame I guess...

On the other hand even a 10 year old desktop PC (preferably with stand alone VGA card) would make a good quality signal source.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1049



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. A decent PC (even old one) with a good quality PCI video card and videophile SW will easily outperform laptops (Mac and PC-based) for running CRT. I was using a dedicated HTPC before I got into OPPO's and Lumagen scalers.
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Again,

So my options are:

A HTPC with a good VGA card (I can maybe find something at work to test).
Another HDMI to VGA converter.
Bypass the filtering in the moome?

I still have a HDLEEZA scaler with DVI inputs and VGA out. I don't know if this could help. The problem is this is not HDCP compatible and will not work with a blueray player in HD.


Anyway I'm going to recap my LVPS (I have already all the parts) and do some mods that Gabor proposed to me and then I'll see what that brings. I can then close up the projector and look for an alternatif for the moome.

Regards,

Ron.
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ronaldus wrote:
Hi Gabor,

so what can we do about the moome?

I tried with a via output of my macbook pro from 2006 but the image was much less sharp then with the moome.

I'm indeed astonished that the roll of is quite significant.

Ron.


I would suggest that you contact Craig Rounds on this. He owns ant external Moome and I think it is the V3 version.


Here's a little background on some of Moomes work:

His initial cards, the ones with the dual HDMI connectors did in fact have a significant Roll off problem. That is when O got involved. Moome at that time was applying harsh filtering before the buffers stages. I corrected that problem be recommending a different filtering method, he followed my recommendations, and that seemed to have solved the problems with the filtering. That was before the later version V3 external, but was supposed to have been used on all of his boards from that time on to what he did last.

There were three of us from the forums that helped in tweaking/debugging the Moome cards. I worked with him on the Sony and Marquee slot cards. Walter (WTS) worked extensively with him on the V3 external, and that external would not have the three individual buffer chips, but instead would have a single (3 amplifier) chip that would be surrounded by a bunch of large caps. The single chip 3 channel buffer stage was Walters design and he may have recommended upgraded DAC's as well. But for sure if looking at the board itself and you see the single tiny chip surrounded by larger caps, that was Walters work in taking the card to another level. I've never seen one in action, only know about the many hours Walter put into it because there were three of us that Moome involved in making the cards better. Me, Walter and Craig.

Craig came along and did most of the testing. And he even worked with Moome on some other changes that could have included how the DAC worked with the CPU and solving some of the other minor issues. So he would be the person that would be able to tell you how the V3 card (if it's the one Walter designed the final stage) would perform. Walter was a quiet guy that most may not have known had worked on one of the versions of the cards, and he was also an Engineer. Both he and Craig went beyond the Buffer Stage in working with Moome. My suggestions only dealt with the 3 chip buffer stage on his stock boards.


The roll off showing in the picture is as you say "quite significant" and by all means should not be as such, but it could also be there because you have a card that may not have Walters work done to it. Again, if the external has a single chip buffer surrounded by larger caps, it is for sure a Walter designed card. But at this point, Craig would be the person that would better know how the stock cards would perform.


I can only add that the better of the cards started out using 10 bit DAC's with one version using 14 Bit DAC's. There was an step up from the 10 Bit to the 12 Bit, but he had also used 14 Bit DAC's also. Aside from any roll off problems could could be possible, they were most likely the best Digital to Analog Video DAC's in operation today. Definitely better DAC's used in these cards than any of the very expensive video generators I've ever used.

_________________
We're no longer offering Mods. There are other options available from other sources these days. We are still supporting any previous work.
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mike,

Tonight I'll post a few pictures of my moome card and then maybe Craig can give some comments.

Regards,

Ron.
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Again,

As promised two pictures of the moome PCB



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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spoke to Craig on this. He said an earlier version of the external did have a roll off problem. The one showing looks very different from what I remember about the one Walter was working on, plus it does not have DAC's I'm familiar with.

If I were you I would get a slot Moome card and considering the improvement you saw and liked and move on. The primary reason for going with a modified card has been met, by your acknowledgement of improvements that you like.


When I was doing mods I stayed away from posting the smpte for this reason, and that's because it's difficult to properly evaluate video mods using that pattern, when other than the HDMI conversion device, I've seen BD players that also prevented the pattern from looking as it should.


And when you get the other Moome that goes in the slot, because that's most likely the one it was designed around, let Gabor know and let him walk you through the testing.









When Mods make an improvement that's acknowledged and you're pleased with the results, that is the goal..Thumbs Up

_________________
We're no longer offering Mods. There are other options available from other sources these days. We are still supporting any previous work.
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thewolfman



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting the Gjaky's mods too. I was very impressed with the screenshot provided by NIDI - I Think it was - so very interested what that could make for a better image for me too, so got to have it. Oh, I have MP bits too and enough parts to make up Another CRT Marquee all togheter - in fact, I will sell one to save up on space also. But Gjaky's mods seems to have the edge here and with MP off the mods arena there is only one left to go to. Not even moome is doing his craft anylonger so I must know what this is all about. Two gifted minds that went two different ways..
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ronaldus



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 173
Location: france


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

So I recapped the LVPS but Gjaki's mods for the standby circuit have not been done yet. I want to compare before and after.

I had one problem while recapping the board where the mains connector comes in: After the recapping and having double checked everything the LVPS didn't work correctly. The contrast was too low and there was distortion on the blue channel in the higher frequencies.

After scratching my head for one day I finally found it. After cleaning the board with an old brush two little hairs had got stuck under two pins of an opamp that was part of some feedback system. The two pins happend to be the + and - inputs of that opamp.

After taking them away everything was fine and I could start recapping the other board.

I have a picture of the testpattern after the recap and a small clip called shaking after recapping downloadable from the following link:

https://cernbox.cern.ch/index.php/s/o8vzBvPg3gTleQ1

If you look carfully at the end of the clip you can see some tiny pertubations in the horizontal lines around the end of the clip. It't hard to film but in reality it's a little bit more visible

I'll do the clip again after Gjaki's mods.

regards,

Ron.



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nidi



Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Switzerland


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Gabors AD 835 DB boards at 1080P 72hz 195MHz Reply with quote

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