CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

nortica · Joined: 28 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

Hello,
I'm completely new to CRT projection, and I'm contemplating taking a dip into the subject mostly for retro gaming purposes. I'm thinking of DOS/Win98 gaming in particular here, so anything that is able to provide a refresh rate beyond 60hz holds special interest to me.
I've come across a datasheet online of a "Barco Cine 8 digital", also listed as "CineVersum Cine 8 digital", but I'm not quite sure how I am supposed to interpret the information. It mentions a vertical scan frequency range from 37-240hz... (see pdf attachment, page 2)

Surely I'm reading this wrong, as I'm assuming that this projector supports a refresh rate of 240hz?? But if so, at what resolution would I be able to achieve that?
Also, is refresh rate freely adjustable with CRT projectors, or am I always going to be limited to some fixed presets that I have to choose from?

And coming back again to this particular "Barco Cine 8 digital". Is this a rare model? I haven't found any listings for the one that's being referenced in the datasheet, but I have come across a unit that looks exactly like it from outside, but it is called "Barco Cine 8 Blackrange". (i attached a pic of the label)

I wasn't able to find any information, no datasheet, or whatsoever for this "Blackrange" model online, so my question: are these two the same?
At least judging from the looks of it, it shouldn't be the same as the "Cine 8 Onyx", which is another black cabinet model that I found when browsing online.

Thanks!

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:35 pm Post subject:

It must be one of the last sets sold by Barco. Is it a rear projection set? I used to own an 808 Retro set for about 10 years. I have no idea what a 'Blackrange' is though. Would love to see a full picture of the set, along with the lens numbers and a pix of the modules.

robin36mac · Joined: 24 Jan 2009 Posts: 44

Hello,

It specs really looks like the same as the Barco Graphics 908.
As the Cine9 is a HT version of the 909 (with some limits) , this Cine8 Digital should be a version of the 908. But I have no idea what can be the difference, maybe only fan control ?
https://www.barco.com/services/website/en/ProductSpecSheet/ProductSpecSheetFile?productId=3ddc7b3d-3fbb-41c6-a5f9-8b9f9faf095b

Robin

nortica · Joined: 28 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

I only have two more pics to offer. Unfortunately i can't give you much more right now. I've seen this "Blackrange" model in a craigslist equivalent here in Europe, but I haven't contacted the seller yet. I can do so, if you tell me precisly what kind of information it is that I should request from him. I'm still a bit in over my head here with regards to the whole topic. When you say 'modules', do you just mean the tubes?

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary

Indeed it looks like a barco 908, which has very advanced beam forming features, thereforre it should produce a very sharp picture (for what it is).

When checking a new unit always look at the tube condition without the lenses on the unit (you can find tube wear charts). If the tubes are burnt (worse than 7 on the chart) pass the unit.

As for the other questions, yes the unit seems to capable of 240Hz refresh rate, but this is much like a conventional CRT display, so it can only display what you send to it, it can't convert input resolution to another (apart from the possibility that this particular projector has a built in line doubler, but that is not what you are looking for)

The key parameters of this projector:
max. horizontal scanrate 110kHz
max. refresh rate: 240Hz

So if you want 1024x768 at say 120Hz, then calculate as follows:
number of lines (768) * refresh rate (120) * overhead (1.1) -> 768*120*1.1= 101kHz so the projector can display this because it is less than 110kHz.
Doing the math backwards yield something like 400 lines for 240Hz refresh rate, so it can only display 240Hz at standard PAL resolution 480i.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:39 pm Post subject:

Just keep in mind that a 908 really are 9" tubes with an 808 chassis behind it.

Don't get too wrapped up in specs. The best 909 poorly set up will not look as good as a regular 808 that is expertly set up. A lot has to do with chassis hours and the condition of the tubes.

At this point, most CRT projectors should be given away, unless they are top of the line 9" sets in good working shape. If the chassis hour count on this set is low and there's no wear on the tubes, then it's worth something. The case condition sure looks nice, but check the chassis hour count, and the type of lenses on the set will help too.

FWIW, I had a bunch of 908 split packs here a bunch of years ago. They were LUG tubes with HFQ900 lenses on it. Two went to CRT HT clients, the rest were bought by the Greek Air Force. One local client that has had his now for 6ish or so years is about to upgrade to a 909 split pack, as he wants more focus, which the 909 will give him.

robin36mac · Joined: 24 Jan 2009 Posts: 44

Hum... I think you meant the opposite :
The 908 is a set of P16LXV with the electronics of the 909 (with 6pole astig, 81 convergence zone and so on)
The Graphics 908 being still 120MHz and the Reality 908 has the same 180MHz as the 909 (they have different CRT socket/video amplifier).

https://www.barco.com/services/website/en/ProductSpecSheet/ProductSpecSheetFile?productId=3ddc7b3d-3fbb-41c6-a5f9-8b9f9faf095b
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/download.php?id=22213

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary

robin36mac · Joined: 24 Jan 2009 Posts: 44

I've added the spare matrix in my message in the meanwhile :
The G908 has the R764271K and the R908 has the R7630275K as the 909 ; so they are supposedly different.

But yes I don't disagree that pratically they are likely not that far in performance as on the paper.

nortica · Joined: 28 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:17 pm Post subject:

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12026 Location: Fort Collins, CO

Yeah that's my question too. What good does 240Hz refresh do you, if the game program is pumping out 30Hz or whatever of blocky 8-bit graphics? Do you have a PC simulator running at higher-than-"real"-speed so it has higher FPS? I wouldn't worry too much about 240Hz though, you really can't see the difference between 120 and 240.

Obviously I don't get the attraction of the retro PC games, but this seems like major overkill. And you're taking on a major "hobby" to get a CRT like this working well. Most of us did that at one time, but that was when CRT was still a viable hobby. There's almost no support or parts left for these beasties any more, even from Curt. (Who, along with a few diehards on this board, has been darn near the last bastion of CRT repair for at least 10-12 years now...)

km987654 · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:08 am Post subject:

So does this have the same digital convergence as a 909?. Perhaps a pic or two of the convergence tray and control board.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:08 am Post subject:

A PC running at 85Hz or 120Hz at 1024x768 could crank out some great gaming from the 1998-2004ish era. Or even 1600x1200 at 100Hz.

nortica · Joined: 28 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

robin36mac · Joined: 24 Jan 2009 Posts: 44

Hello,

We havn't said this was exactly a BarcoGraphics 908, but it is very likely to be almost the same thing inside, fan control may be different. Aa it's the case for the Cine9 and the 909, they are very similar.
The only ones that will take up the 180KHz, and there is also the G90 that can handle 150KHz of horizontal scan rate.

Be aware that these are the very high end, such low resolution of 800x600, you will see the scan lines.
In my opinion it would be better to use a quite higher resolution with a lower refresh rate (1280*1024@160 at minimum, or 1600*1200@140)

Robin

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary

If the unit is rasonably close to you, then it is the best to check out personally, getting off the lenses and having a look inside the chassis is a 30 min. work maximum. Also, you don't need a proper setup to figure out how many hours in it. But the seller should know this as well if he actually used the projector...

I have been playing with custom resolutions on different PC configurations over the years, and I have yet to see one VGA card that supports >150Hz refresh over D-SUB (analog) out. I don't say there can't be but it is better to check...

I did some research regarding the model of this particular unit.
All relevant brochures are available from this site, there are three of them:
1.) Cine range brochure from 1999, the projectors have grey case.
2.) Cine range brochure from 2003, the projectors have black case, the cine 8 here is indeed a regular one (~BG808s with MEC tubes)
3.) Cine 8 digital brochure from 2005, so this is brochure is actualy newer than the actual projector in question.
I think it is unlikely it would be a „digital” model, instead a regular cine 8 with black case.
Regardless this makes no practical difference for the intended use, as the main limiting factor here is the 110kHz scan limit, which appears to be the same on all models.

Where are you located BTW?

nortica · Joined: 28 Dec 2018 Posts: 9

gjaky · Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2790 Location: Budapest, Hungary