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Finally, get to set up my G90 in my new HT.

 
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deronmoped



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:33 am    Post subject: Finally, get to set up my G90 in my new HT. Reply with quote


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Long story short, I had to redo my whole basement, which included my HT. Three years and I'm almost done. I'm at the point where I have my screen up and my PJ in place. I have new bare tubes for it. I need to cut out the old and install the new ones. These are not Sony tubes, so I need to do the neck board mod. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find the procedure? Also, I would like to explore the green C-element change. Can anyone give me a idea what it's like, before and after, in the way of color and loss of brightness?

Thanks, Deron.
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km987654



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2760
Location: Australia

TV/Projector: Barco BG809s


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: Finally, get to set up my G90 in my new HT. Reply with quote

deronmoped wrote:
Long story short, I had to redo my whole basement, which included my HT. Three years and I'm almost done. I'm at the point where I have my screen up and my PJ in place. I have new bare tubes for it. I need to cut out the old and install the new ones. These are not Sony tubes, so I need to do the neck board mod. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find the procedure? Also, I would like to explore the green C-element change. Can anyone give me a idea what it's like, before and after, in the way of color and loss of brightness?

Thanks, Deron.


When you say these "are not Sony tubes" do you mean not from a G90 as the G90 doesn't use Sony tubes.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1087



PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope they're LUG's as most anything else will be a downgrade.

I had the darker green C element installed when I retubed the green. If you have full light control I don't think you'll miss the loss of lumens. How big is the screen? Colorimetry is improved as is saturation. No brainer IMO, if you can find one.
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deronmoped



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original tubes are P19LQF's. The new replacement tubes are, green P19LUG, red and blue P19LPB's. The original red looks perfect, may just keep that without swapping in a replacement. The original green is toast, the original blue is usable, that's if I was going to go with the original phosphor wear.

The screen is a 160" 16X9 Da-lite Hi-Power, they say it has a gain of 4, but it looks much brighter then a 4. The room has no windows and everything is blacked out, using black velvet. I have a 10PG that I used with this screen and it was plenty bright. The only downside is the brightness falls off pretty quickly, for more then four seats wide.

As far as colors are concerned, how would someone know if they are not correct (to a point), not unless they could reference them to something. I always shot for correct flesh tones, as that is really the only reference we have, even then they still could be off a little and no would know.

The brightness of the image is pretty important, so is correct color. But is it just a preference, something one person would prefer, where as another person would prefer the other.
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pj-toso



Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: Norway - Oppland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deronmoped wrote:
The screen is a 160" 16X9 Da-lite Hi-Power, they say it has a gain of 4, but it looks much brighter then a 4. The room has no windows and everything is blacked out, using black velvet. I have a 10PG that I used with this screen and it was plenty bright. The only downside is the brightness falls off pretty quickly, for more then four seats wide.


In what angle does that screen reflect the light?

Do u install the G90 ceiling, floor, table, mid-position zero-angle for the lenses?

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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1087



PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully floor mounted. Any gains the HP offers (btw I really like the Dalite HP material for its high gain rating and minimal hotspotting) will be lost if the pj is ceiling mounted.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15784
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deronmoped wrote:
As far as colors are concerned, how would someone know if they are not correct (to a point), not unless they could reference them to something.

You do that by measuring with a colorimeter or spectroradiometer. See here for how: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322

You'l get reports that show you exactly how far off you are.

Quote:
I always shot for correct flesh tones, as that is really the only reference we have

That is incorrect. The reference we have (and use) is the standard white point. To quote my guide:

Quote:
What is grayscale calibration?

Performing grayscale calibration is the act of adjusting your display to make sure that from near black (10% video) to white (100% video) the display shows as close to the correct shade of gray as possible without the intrusion of unwanted colors. Gray cannot be slightly reddish, bluish, or greenish. This is done with the aid of a color measuring meter or colorimeter. A colorimeter must be used as our eyes are a horrible tool for measuring colors.

Grayscale calibration balances the color of gray at various light levels, from very dark (10%) to very bright (100%), to the standard white point, which has been traditionally described as a color temperature of 6500 kelvins or 6500K. However, a more accurate way to describe an accurate white point for displays in North America and Europe is D65, which is a precisely defined color. 6500K actually describes many colors, of which D65 is only one. D65 approximates the color of sunlight measured at noon in North America. Assuming the monitor you're using right now is fairly accurate in terms of grayscale, a perfect grayscale looks something like this:



Unfortunately most displays at their default settings have too much red in the darker areas and too much blue in the lighter areas such that their grayscale looks more like this:



If you target accurate flesh tones, you're going to screw up a lot of movies that purposely push certain colours. Think of "The Matrix" with its green and blue tints. In the real world the colours push blue. In the Matrix they push green. Neither looks like 'correct' fleshtone in natural light but this was done purposely by the director(s). You don't know what the director intended so you can't make assumptions on what to target.

Titanic is another good example. It's very soft/warm (pushes red) in the first half, then shifts to pushing blue in the second half of the movie.

Quote:
The brightness of the image is pretty important, so is correct color. But is it just a preference, something one person would prefer, where as another person would prefer the other.

Colour is not a preference. It's either correct, or it isn't. Some people may prefer inaccurate colours which is fine, but it's still incorrect and will NOT show what the director intended.

There is only ONE correct way to display colors: By following the industry wide recognized color standards used for standard definition (SD) and high definition (HD). Everything else is simply wrong. Movies and TV shows are all meticulously created to adhere to these industry color standards that have existed for years. For a TV or projector to reproduce what the director intends the audience to see, it has to follow these standards.

More in my guide: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322

Kal

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10615
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pj-toso wrote:
In what angle does that screen reflect the light?
Do u install the G90 ceiling, floor, table, mid-position zero-angle for the lenses?

The Hi-Power is a retro-reflective screen - it reflects back to the light source, like a stop sign. That's why HaydenG90 recommended floor-mounting, since that keeps your eyes close to the CRT light source, where the reflected light is maximized.
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pj-toso



Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 60
Location: Norway - Oppland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
pj-toso wrote:
In what angle does that screen reflect the light?
Do u install the G90 ceiling, floor, table, mid-position zero-angle for the lenses?

The Hi-Power is a retro-reflective screen - it reflects back to the light source, like a stop sign. That's why HaydenG90 recommended floor-mounting, since that keeps your eyes close to the CRT light source, where the reflected light is maximized.


Thanks for the clarification. Is floor installation the best, or will it be even better if the projector is installed tilted in the back so the lenses are at zero angle and pointing dircetly at the center of the screen.

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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 25451
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a retro reflective screen here for a bit. I had the projector on a cart above my head with the lenses at a 0-5 deg angle. My chair sits in front of the cart.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1087



PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The HP never worked well for CRT at least with standard throw lenses. The light source has to be as close to the angle of view as possible. That meant the pj was occupying the best seat in the house. Not ideal. Ceiling mounting offered none of the benefits of high gain so i switched to a Studiotek 130 and put the pj where it belonged on the ceiling.
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10615
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine has a Hi-Power and a G70. He has the G70 sitting in the front row, between the two front seats. So yes, it definitely has the best seat. And it's a bit noisy to sit next to. You can also see noticeable color shift from side to side, especially as you move across the room. When you're sitting on one side you're closer to the red lens, so you see more red than blue. On the other side you're closer to the blue.
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deronmoped



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I had my 10PG projecting onto my 160" Hi-Power (overly large screen), it was ceiling mounted but it was dropped down from the ceiling right over my head in my seating position. It was high enough so I would not hit my head on it when sitting down or getting up. I how have my G90 in a projection room (cloths closet) with it even lower then what I had my 10PG at. I remember doing some experimenting with my 10PG ceiling install with fall off of brightness and color shifting. You were good as long as you did not get more then about four feet off the center line of the PJ. That gives you eight feet for seating, four good seats. Beyond that the brightness and color shift was noticeable. I always had the best seat in the house, the peasants can eat cake. I also noticed that within a few feet there was no visible difference in how bright or color shifted the image was. I checked that to see if dropping the PJ even closer to eye level made it worth doing.

I always felt the Hi-Power was a hidden gem. Sure, you do not have a "perfect" image from corner to corner of the room, but why should I care. I get the best seat in the house and my guests are no better the wiser. In fact, the ignorant masses are impressed with the image they do get. What I do get is a overly large, punchy image. Another thing I like about this screen is, your not seeing the screen. There is no texture that I can see in the image, a artifact that I see in way too many screens out there. My buddy has a high dollar gray screen that I think is terrible (this is his third or fourth screen). For all the money he spent and to be able to see the screen when your watching something is terrible. I don't dare point it out to him, feel sorry that he keeps throwing money at all these screens he's tried. It even has laddering. Which he did notice.

As far as getting the correct colors or gray scale, that is something you can shoot for, but even with the prefect set up, the set up is always going to be compromised by something. That is why I'm not sold on changing out my G90 green C-element yet. Not unless someone can convince me that the colors or gray scale are going to be that much better. Much more important then the loss in brightness. Just like Kal said, the producers of these shows have their own idea of how to set the mood of the presentation. Also, I'm not convinced that colors or gray scale is adhered to by the industry at all. If it's anything even close to how audio standards are adhered to, it's all over the place. I feel as long as you can watch a flick and the flesh-tones look good, then your good to go. I mean, how do you know what shade a color is supposed to be, is the grass supposed to be greener, is the dress supposed to be less blue, is the color on a cars paint job supposed to have more red in it??? You don't have a correct color chart that you hold up during a movie, to make sure things are correct, do you.

I wonder if they make a video equalizer Very Happy
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10615
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I experimented with a sample 1'x2' patch of HP. I tacked it up on my cheezy blackout-cloth screen. Standing up, MAJOR pow. LOTS of brightness and punch. That was with the lenses less than a foot above my eyes. Then I sat down and it was about the same as the BO screen, maybe even a bit dimmer.

Changing out your green C-element... you DO have a green one in there now, right? Do you think it's changed color and needs replacing? If for some reason you DON'T have colored R and G C-elements, IMHO they make an enormous difference. Like you said, if the fleshtones look good... but without color filtering the fleshtones on my 8500 looked pasty and lifeless. Swap in color-filtered HD145 lenses -- or even Calcolor gels as an experiment -- and, after a recalibration, the colors looked fantastic. HUGE improvement. See this thread for my experimental results.
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dochlywd



Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would gladly make the 2 1/2 hour drive for this screen if I lived where you do!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stewart-Projector-Screen-96-Perforated-Electromask/173623770040?hash=item286cc87bb8:g:BzYAAOSwCgNbw9qh:rk:2:pf:0
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