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6000 Watt Commecial 2 Channel Power Amplifier

 
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: 6000 Watt Commecial 2 Channel Power Amplifier Reply with quote


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Starting Next month I will initiate repair on 6 of these huge power amps. They were custom ordered and has the name of the organization that ordered them as the make on the front. Not sure who the original manufacturer is or was. Doing several searches could not match it to anything else out there, or for now. The AC power fuse is a 25 amp AGC. My first ever seeing an AGC fuse with that wattage rating, or imagining an 120 volt line would handle that wattage rating, though have seen 30 amp rated 120 AC outlets that were required for special installs. It uses 40 (total) of those large power transistors for both channels.







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CIR Engineering



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Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: 6000 Watt Commecial 2 Channel Power Amplifier Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
Starting Next month I will initiate repair on 6 of these huge power amps. They were custom ordered and has the name of the organization that ordered them as the make on the front. Not sure who the original manufacturer is or was. Doing several searches could not match it to anything else out there, or for now. The AC power fuse is a 25 amp AGC. My first ever seeing an AGC fuse with that wattage rating, or imagining an 120 volt line would handle that wattage rating, though have seen 30 amp rated 120 AC outlets that were required for special installs. It uses 40 (total) of those large power transistors for both channels.

Can I have one Mike? Mr. Green

30 amps is allowed with 10 AWG wire in the USA Mike. I ran my theater that way and run my audio amps and projector at 240v on a 30 amp breaker with 10 AWG wire. I run the rest of my components at 120 volts on a 30 amp breaker with 10 AWG wire. I did this to help elevate the potential for ground loops Wink

My entire system runs on one breaker through a #10 three conductor wire. So basically it's equivalent to 60 amps at 120 volts. I'm not certain it meets code, but it is done safely.

Funny thing too is that my house is 110 years old and only has a 100 amp main. The wires run from the pole can support a 200 amp main, but I have never exceeded the 100 amps in the entire house so I haven't bothered to change it. My breaker box uses the old pushmatic breakers. I've considered changing the main breaker (they are available on eBay reasonably priced) or the entire breaker box, but I don't want to call the electric company to pull the meter and then have my place inspected Embarassed

craigr

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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: 6000 Watt Commecial 2 Channel Power Amplifier Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
mp20748 wrote:
Starting Next month I will initiate repair on 6 of these huge power amps. They were custom ordered and has the name of the organization that ordered them as the make on the front. Not sure who the original manufacturer is or was. Doing several searches could not match it to anything else out there, or for now. The AC power fuse is a 25 amp AGC. My first ever seeing an AGC fuse with that wattage rating, or imagining an 120 volt line would handle that wattage rating, though have seen 30 amp rated 120 AC outlets that were required for special installs. It uses 40 (total) of those large power transistors for both channels.

Can I have one Mike? Wink

30 amps is allowed with 10 AWG wire in the USA Mike. I ran my theater that way and run my audio amps and projector at 240v on a 30 amp breaker with 10 AWG wire. I run the rest of my components at 120 volts on a 30 amp breaker with 10 AWG wire. I did this to help elevate the potential for ground loops Wink

My entire system runs on one breaker through a #10 three conductor wire. So basically it's equivalent to 60 amps at 120 volts. I'm not certain it meets code, but it is done safely.

craigr


I have my shop on it's own supply, and the only thing needed to covert to 30 amp is the Yellow Romex cable (12ga). 10ga gauge can also used for 30 amp, but that is temperature dependent. And of course, would need better or higher amperage circuit breakers.

I have an 8 ga (240) run going from my main breaker box on a maybe 40 foot run to a dedicated circuit and breaker box in my shop. I did an heavy up for those large lamp projectors I was repairing that were 240 and in the event I would get back to doing power amps. I Also have two very large 8 ohm resistor loads.

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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: 6000 Watt Commecial 2 Channel Power Amplifier Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:


Funny thing too is that my house is 110 years old and only has a 100 amp main. The wires run from the pole can support a 200 amp main, but I have never exceeded the 100 amps in the entire house so I haven't bothered to change it. My breaker box uses the old pushmatic breakers. I've considered changing the main breaker (they are available on eBay reasonably priced) or the entire breaker box, but I don't want to call the electric company to pull the meter and then have my place inspected Embarassed

craigr


The next time you're in the area, I'll show you my Dranetz Power analyzer. I did most of the power and grounding problem troubleshooting for the operation I used to work for. There is nothing really special required to do this, only to make sure you use a totally separate breaker that is not using anything else in the house, and that it is also grounded separately and has a dual breaker that's below the rated amperage of the 240 line (main) and is sufficiently above the load you're using. My analyzer come in good for this, because the lag reading helps determine the right breaker load.

The rest is IEEE requirement. And most electricians are not familiar, only to make sure when going over 20 standard, a dedicated breaker box should be used for 30 amp and above.

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Curt Palme
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, I give you this. Found this link the other day. Check out the amps/power specs in such a tiny box.

Frankly, it's not for me for a couple of reasons..

Yes, you can need that much power in a commercial application.. (arenas), but if that amp does down, I'll bet it goes down with a massive bang, and how much of your system do you then lose as a result? I'd rather have 4 separate smaller power amps, and if one fails, you don't lose 1/2 the arena. Still, these specs are impressive:

http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html
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CIR Engineering



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:37 am    Post subject: Re: 6000 Watt Commecial 2 Channel Power Amplifier Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:


Funny thing too is that my house is 110 years old and only has a 100 amp main. The wires run from the pole can support a 200 amp main, but I have never exceeded the 100 amps in the entire house so I haven't bothered to change it. My breaker box uses the old pushmatic breakers. I've considered changing the main breaker (they are available on eBay reasonably priced) or the entire breaker box, but I don't want to call the electric company to pull the meter and then have my place inspected Embarassed

craigr


The next time you're in the area, I'll show you my Dranetz Power analyzer. I did most of the power and grounding problem troubleshooting for the operation I used to work for. There is nothing really special required to do this, only to make sure you use a totally separate breaker that is not using anything else in the house, and that it is also grounded separately and has a dual breaker that's below the rated amperage of the 240 line (main) and is sufficiently above the load you're using. My analyzer come in good for this, because the lag reading helps determine the right breaker load.

The rest is IEEE requirement. And most electricians are not familiar, only to make sure when going over 20 standard, a dedicated breaker box should be used for 30 amp and above.

I wish I could have come by over Thanksgiving this year Mike, I was in the area as usual. But I've had what I suspect is the flu for almost a month now and I didn't want to do ANYTHING while I was in DC.

But hey, don't forget we are talking about my house here. I spent $30k+ getting the theater room finished with my own two hands and I wasn't about to do anything extra like adding another breaker box Wink My solution works great for my layout and I like it Razz

craigr

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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
I'd rather have 4 separate smaller power amps


That is the general idea with these amps, to use multiple instead of a single super power amplifier, mainly because Class A/B can become more unstable the higher wattage it is, and that is also why out of the 6 they purchased, all six need repair.

In the link, that must be the new Class D amplifier, things are very different them, they don't run as hot and don't become unstable.


I was trying to find out what could have caused all six to fail, and was told one tech was hooking them up to multiple speakers all in parallel. Asking further did not help, because it's hard to believe anyone could be that stupid, that at least should have had some understanding of power amplifiers, or should have been called a Tech. I had already informed them that if I'm able to repair them, they should be operated at much lower power expectations, or maybe even at 8 ohm.

I know of commercial amps that have handled 2 ohm loads and have done well doing so, so it's not unusual to find some hold up even when a knuckle-head improperly load them. And to add, nothing they do at that facility or the events they deal with should have caused them to fail like this. They have since been using lower power amplifiers with no failures reported.


I had a Military sight at a Ballistics (bombs) Base, where I worked on the multi-screen display systems in a large room, and right across the hall, was an even larger room that had large sub-woofers going all around the room. And it had racks and racks of power amps. I asked what was the room used for, they said they did sound test of explosives. Not somewhere I would want to be during any testing because I'm already familiar with the sound pressure levels of bombs, and this is from a distance.

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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Re: 6000 Watt Commecial 2 Channel Power Amplifier Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:


But hey, don't forget we are talking about my house here. I spent $30k+ getting the theater room finished with my own two hands and I wasn't about to do anything extra like adding another breaker box Wink My solution works great for my layout and I like it Razz

craigr


You really didn't have to, if you were running 120. Only needed the yellow Romex (30 amp) and make sure it was dedicated to that room only and had the right circuit breaker in your main box. And there's no need to have an electrician there for anything, only that you have a circuit breaker at the right rating for the room. That's in the vent of fire, a flag would only be raised based on what thy find in the breaker box after a fire.


I had planned to have a few over, but thought it would best to do so next year.

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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have said a dedicated breaker is required when you're running 240 to another location in your house/building/outside.



I still have my Test-Bed Christie Digital 6000 DLP projector (below). I used to have some of the lamp power supplies, that was near the same size of the Marquee LVPS. These units used 1200watt lamps and were only 1280X1024 and 6000 ANSI Lumens . They also made an 2000 and 4000 model, that used different lamps and power supplies, but same chassis and operated on 120 ac

These days you can get 6000 lumens out of a much smaller projectors.

I remember I had to make up a special (and very long) power cord because I had to use my clothes dryers 240 outlet before making the changes in the shop. The 4000 and 2000 I do recall did not require special power consideration.


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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now back to the monster 6000 watt amplifier.

I met the guy who blew out the amplifiers and was able to hear what happened and why. It turns out he did overload the output of the amp, but did so by only using one channel (CH2) on each of the amps he duplicated this problem on.

And when I had visited the location on Thursday was once again in Geek Mode hooking up power amplifiers and other stuff, with no particular goal or purpose. I was able share some things with him during our long chat, in hopes of getting him to understand the dangers in playing around with the output of these not only High Power Amplifiers, they also can put lethal voltages on those speaker outputs. For instance, the 6000 watt amp has a very high current dual +/- 150 volt rails for the output transistors.

What he explained he did that that took them out was connect 4 very large dual driver sub-woofers in parallel on that one Ch2 output on the amplifiers. Each of the four cabinets has a DC resistance of 4 ohms each, that would place the DC load on the amps output near one ohm..Rolling EyesShocked

I have one of those transformer-less power amplifiers that's rated at 1400 watts when used in the "BRIDGED Mode" and that's rated into a single four (4) ohm load. I use this amplifier in a portable rack unit sound system, that has wheels on it. I power two dual 15" (Eminence) woofers and a horn. These speakers are rated at 4 ohm, and when connected to my 1400 watt amplifier, it puts out 500 watts each channel into those 4 ohm loads. I use this amp because of its single rack space and low weight and power capability, considering this is a portable but complete sound system. Great for vocals and general music playing.

I also have another amplifier, that would be my choice and best for this, but and it also puts out 500 watts each channel into 4 ohm loads, and of course it has a very large power transformer that makes very heavy to use in that portable rack, with the 1400 watt (single rack) one weighing only 14 pounds. I use the heavier one when playing easy listening music and for events where the absolute best sound quality would be the goal.

My heavy amp is an older model made by Biamp back in the day. It's one of the few Mosfet Commercial amplifiers ever made. It is very power hungry (inefficient - uses a 20 amp AC fuse), but it sounds amazingly clean and punchy.

I mentioned this amplifier because of it's fuse rating, that is 20 amp. It is a Biamp XA1000 (500watt 4 ohm each channel), while the 6000 watt monster uses a 25 amp AC fuse. The Monster has 40 total large power transistors for both channels, while the XA1000 has a total of 16 Power Mosfets for both channels (8 each channel). What a difference of 5 amps rating on fuses between the two amplifiers.

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Curt Palme
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give the guy a Behringer, tell him that it's '6000 watts', and be done with it. Very Happy
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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, the Behringer 6000 watt amp that being sold everywhere, Including Walmart, Sears and Best Buy. Going for somewhere around $349.00 boxed..Shocked

Then I would have to explain IPP Power and why he's not able to drive those large sub cabinets with it.

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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
Give the guy a Behringer, tell him that it's '6000 watts', and be done with it. Very Happy


Well, he had some of them among his many power amps. One blew that I've ordered parts for and have on the bench. The guy swears by theses amps, that they really puts out some power. One each has four channels, can be bridged to make of a two channel amp. Has amazing RMS specs considering they weigh about 13lbs. He prefers the Berhringer over everything else he has including the huge 6000 watt one shown above.

I think I'm good on understanding the high efficiency of "Class D" amplifiers and that heat sinks are not really needed, but I'll never understand why they rear mount those two loud fans, if they operate so cool.

For what these things are selling for, they will most likely be disposable amps much like a lot of stuff these days.





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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just repaired an Inuke 6000. Behringer claims 6000 watts total, but in reality it's 250 watts RMS per channel. Complete pieces of crap, and I was amused to see that a used Inuke 6000 sells for about the same of what an older QSC amp sells for, that's built better and with more power.
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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was speaking of the RMS power rating, this is what they claim, though I ignore 2 ohm operation, because it's kinda dumb to run any amp with a 2 ohm load


4-channel pro audio amplifier
power output:
440 watts per channel at 8 ohms
860 watts per channel at 4 ohms
1600 watts per channel at 2 ohms
1600 watts (mono) at 8 ohms in bridged mode
frequency response: 20-20,000 Hz (-2.0 dB)
signal-to-noise ratio: 100 dB
total harmonic distortion: 0.2%

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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
I was speaking of the RMS power rating, this is what they claim, though I ignore 2 ohm operation, because it's kinda dumb to run any amp with a 2 ohm load

Tell that to Apogee Scintilla owners (1 ohm nominal impedance). Considered by many as one of the best sounding or at least one of the most important speakers ever built. They were dubbed the 'amp killers' for a reason. Wink

There are others that are really low (nominal) impedance that are also considered world class. Some even believe that lower impedance speakers actually sound better (not sure I buy that - I think it's a system thing / combination of the parts).

Even more traditional cone based speakers like the renowned Thiel CS5i would drop to 2 ohms at certain frequencies.

Pick the speakers that have the characteristics that you like, and then pick an amp that is well matched (and capable) of driving them.

I don't think it's dumb as you don't (or shouldn't) pick the amp first. I like to see a doubling of power as you half the impedance myself as it was a sign of a well design amp.

Kal

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mp20748



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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
mp20748 wrote:
I was speaking of the RMS power rating, this is what they claim, though I ignore 2 ohm operation, because it's kinda dumb to run any amp with a 2 ohm load

Tell that to Apogee Scintilla owners (1 ohm nominal impedance). Considered by many as one of the best sounding or at least one of the most important speakers ever built. They were dubbed the 'amp killers' for a reason. Wink


My pointy exactly, and why it's not a good idea to run any amplifier at 2 ohms, though in your consumer model, the amps most likely used for that Apogee Scintilla were huge and could have 20 to 40 power transistors in them and were only 100 or 200 watt rated. They were true high current rated and were never used to drive at the very high output levels most commercials sound system had to operate at. So using any ole power amplifier to drive those speakers, especially at 1 ohm could take that amplifier out ("amp killer").

Quote:
There are others that are really low (nominal) impedance that are also considered world class. Some even believe that lower impedance speakers actually sound better (not sure I buy that - I think it's a system thing / combination of the parts)


There are debates in favor of lower impedance speakers making for better sound but more against it, stating that 4 or 8 makes more sense.

Quote:
Even more traditional cone based speakers like the renowned Thiel CS5i would drop to 2 ohms at certain frequencies


And that would mean that your more common speaker system systems that has a "nominal Impedance" of 8 ohms could put an 2 ohm load on the amplifier, likewise you would have to take in account what would happen in this case if the speaker had a nominal impedance of 2 ohms.

Quote:
So, why do I need to know or care about this? It is important to realize that even though a speaker may have a rating of 8 ohms, the actual value can vary greatly. The impedance of a speaker varies as a function of input signal frequency. As stated above, speaker impedance is in general reactive. This means that the impedance consists of a resistive part and either an inductive or capacitive portion (inductive and capacitive impedances cannot exist at the same time). The actual impedance (for an 8 ohm system) might vary from around 5 or 6 ohms up to as high as 50 or 60 ohms! The high numbers (50 or 60) are not so much the issue; it's the low numbers that cause trouble for amplifiers. Most amplifiers can easily handle the load of a "typical" 8 ohm speaker; the trouble comes in when one tries to drive two systems (in parallel) from the same amplifier. If you have an amplifier that is not too good with low impedance loads AND you have two "difficult" 8 ohms systems connected to it, you are inviting trouble. In general, amplifiers do not like to drive reactive loads (which all speakers are of course). The best way to combat this is to use an amplifier that can dish out substantial current (i.e. one that claims it is good with 2 ohm loads). Lesser amplifier designs will be the first to "quit" whenever difficult speaker loads are connected to it.



Quote:
Pick the speakers that have the characteristics that you like, and then pick an amp that is well matched (and capable) of driving them


Exactly, but knowing out of the bunch of high power amplifiers ever built and sold, only a hand full has proven capable of driving 2 ohm loads (high current), not just at the levels that you would find in your average Home Sound System, but at the very high levels required in those commercial applications, where sound pressure levels exceeds what would be SAFE to listen to or be directly in front of. So yes, the speaker should be a match for the amplifier.


Quote:
I don't think it's dumb as you don't (or shouldn't) pick the amp first. I like to see a doubling of power as you half the impedance myself as it was a sign of a well design amp.

Kal


Because most amplifiers would struggle with a 2 ohm load, is more likely why most consumer speakers are rated at a nominal impedance of 8 ohm. And my thoughts on it being dumb to "run any amp at 2 ohm load" had more to do with the commercial industry where the amplifiers would need to operate for very high SPL's and also be able to produce the current when the impedance changes with frequency. The amp would have to hold up under the stress and heat from such operation, where as pointed out above ("The best way to combat this is to use an amplifier that can dish out substantial current (i.e. one that claims it is good with 2 ohm loads). Lesser amplifier designs will be the first to "quit" whenever difficult speaker loads are connected to it"). So most amplifiers that claim they can handle 2 ohm loads can be seen as HIGH CURRENT amplifiers, but would be better suited still for nominal impedance of 4 ohms or more to be on the safe side.

The facility that I'm repairing their power amplifiers, have been trying to run them at maximum power by running them at 2 ohm. So far, they took out a stack of the 6000 watt amplifiers (as pictured above) and this Behringer NU4 6000. They also have a bunch of QSC's, Crown, etc. that's never seen a screwdriver. And though some power amplifiers can endure absolute punishment, it's still best to not abuse them (stress/high temp), when subjecting them to loads that would put them closer to failing one day. So instead of hooking up two 4 ohm subs for a bridged 2 ohm output, it's best to use multiple amplifiers at 4 ohm loads. It's safe to used bridged into 4 ohms. I would never use or recommend a bridged amplifier into 2 ohm loads for high sound pressure commercial applications. [/i]

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