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Nidi's Mike Parker Marquee board mods
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Nashou66 wrote:
For example. Here is Chip ( IC 77 ) on a Yamaha AV receiver i had to change. it blew about 5 times due to a short I was trying to track down. Every time I think I found it I was wrong. eventually I got it and no more blown chip. that is chip number 6 . No burnt pads or board or surrounding
traces damaged.

QuckChip is a god send for me. I love using it.

nashou


I somehow knew you would post something like this. I'll just let the experts look at that chip and draw their own conclusions on this.

I asked how would you remove the IC... you explained it and said how you avoid heat damage. What you're not understanding is the board itself is either WAVE soldered or DIP Soldered (the entire board). This process uses only one heat application. The process of replacing an IC, requires two. The PC boards are known to really be able to handle only the one process. A PC board that can better handle two is more costly and considered not economical to use in manufacturing, because the boards were not made with repair in mind, and that is why they break down, more so during chip removal. Because you really have to HEAT that board to get a chip off of it. And no magic little sauce will get around the temperature that needed to heat the pins (all four of them) to remove a SOIC.

IC 77 is very suspect here sir, and I'll not say why, only that those who have many years of experience with this already know what heat will do to those cheap boards we've been dealing with, especially that cheap stuff coming out of China and Japan. You're good if you're able to replace a chip a second time. That would be four times that board would have to deal with heat it was not designed to deal with. It was designed for wave or machine soldering only.

Look at where that RED wire is attached, where you can see what happens when heat hits that board, and what happens when a different solder is being used than what is already on the board, because the two different soldering methods.

IC77 replaced 5 times = I say BS. But don't feel bad, Kurt consistently claims he has a stock set of neck boards that he's getting to do up to 200MHZ (1920X1080P) by simply replacing one resistor..Shocked I asked Gjaky about this some post back and he later posted on his "The Mod" thread a bunch of smpte patterns showing what a stock neck board look like and goes on here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=480515#480515

Keep in mind, he would be directly putting the test signal into the tested neck board. But what I want you to look at is the pattern he said is 1920X1080P /60hz and also look at the 1920X1080P /72hz. Do note that he also replaced that same magic resistor (R22). What those patterns are showing is proof as have always known, the boards cannot even do 1920X1080P /60hz. What he was also showing was an Ultimate neck board that he does much like what I've been doing (replace way more than 1 resistor). Not sure why some people outrageous claims, knowing some stuff will never fly beyond those hwo know better.

Now you're saying you can remove a multi-pin and very fine PC board trace IC, and do so without ANY sign of heat or board damage..Confused

The boards I was having made for my mini boards were of a better quality, more of the fiberglass type
that can better handle heat. My later version used a tiny multi pin chip. A dab of glue to hold it in place and you can quick heat the leads and flow solder. The problem comes in if the chip ever needs to be removed. Even on the much better grade board material, those tiny little trace lines become a problem during the removal process, because the heat require to loosen each pin is not only punishing on those tiny little pins themselves, the heat will also separate the traces from the board. Sure soldering tools can make the process better, but there is nothing out there that would make a RE-WORK process seamless. Heat is damaging period, especially on PC boards and wire traces..
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El Duderino




Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4627
Location: Portland, OR


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
What you're not understanding is the board itself is either WAVE soldered or DIP Soldered (the entire board).

No, SMT boards aren't WAVE soldered or DIP soldered. Most all SMT components are reflow soldered. A paste containing tiny balls of solder mixed with flux material is squeegeed onto the pads and then the parts are placed onto these solder-pasted pads. The board(s) are then conveyed into an oven with a temperature ramp profile like this (non-RoHS) profile:




When the oven temp hits the eutectic point of the alloy, all of the tiny balls of solder embedded in the paste reflow together and create the filleted solder joint between the SM pins and SM pads.


mp20748 wrote:
And no magic little sauce will get around the temperature that needed to heat the pins (all four of them) to remove a SOIC.

Yes, there is a 'magic little sauce' that will dramatically lower the temperatures needed to remove parts. If you were to research it, and actually try it, I think you would be thanking Nash here for turning you on to a great little tip that would make your rework much better, much easier, and with far less risk of pad delamination and other heat related damage. Especially if you don't use a better hot-air rework tool and/or are working with cheaper FR4 PCB laminate material.

https://youtu.be/UmD7F0--7Lc
https://youtu.be/7kyaz4Zrd78
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:

No, SMT boards aren't WAVE soldered or DIP soldered. They are reflow soldered


The boards we're talking about here were WAVE soldered. They contain both SMD and trough-Hole:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inHzaJIE7-4


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_soldering

"Wave soldering is used for both through-hole printed circuit assemblies, and surface mount"


https://www.itweae.com/applications/wave-soldering/wave-soldering-smt

"Even though most SMT soldering is achieved through reflow, some assemblies require that some of the Surface Mounted Devices (SMDs) on a board, such as chip components, must be wave soldered"



Quote:
Yes, there is a 'magic little sauce' that will dramatically lower the temperatures needed to remove parts. If you were to have researched it first


I saw the video. The usage of this magic little sauce seems to put emphasis on very large multi pin chips. My question pertained to a single SOIC, which is an 8 pin chip. Do note if looking at the video, the amount of heat required still to first get all the pins heated, and that one of the traces had moved. Seems in that video on this stuff, they used temperatures well over 200 degrees. And it speaks only of chip removal. I think my method is better for an SOIC, because I use a sharp razor blade and cut four pins on one side of the chip, then the other side. After that, I simply run the soldering tip across where the pins was cut and the pins stick to the soldering iron tip. This of course is a fast pin removal that barely heats the board traces at all. Quite unlike what you see in the video.

Now once the chip is removed, then the soldering must take place to attach the new one. A tab of glue is best to hold the chip in place first and from there the soldering takes place. My point and what was also shown in the video that should also include the use of this stuff, that some of those traces can separate from the board in the removal process. That can also happen using the razor blade method (lower heat) and this will increase the more you have to do this of course... So there is no magic way to avoid heat damage to the boards. That according to the video can happen even with the best solution. And we know that would become more of a program when soldering the new chip onto the board. and doing so more than once.


Last edited by mp20748 on Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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barclay66




Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1291
Location: Germany

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
...if you take your time and use the right tools, the right heat they still can look factory new.

Hi,

In my opinion, it doesn't have to look like factory new. On the other hand, broken and/or lifted traces plus burn marks on adjacent parts and cables aren't necessary.
The PCB boards on Marquees aren't the best I've ever seen but they aren't overly bad either.
With care and patience, good results are possible like for example the neck board I've been experimenting with recently (see picture). All soldering was made by hand using a very old Weller magnastat soldering iron (temp around 700 degrees Farenheit).
Removing the 8-pin SMD transistors was done using this procedure:

- Add a blob of fresh solder (mine contains 3.5% flux) to each side of the chip
- Heat up all four pins of one side at the same time (the solder blob will transfer the heat)
- Lift this side of the device carefully using a micro flat tip screw driver while the solder still is molten
- Grab the lifted side with a pair of tweezers
- Heat up the other side and remove the device
- Remove all excess solder using solder wick
- Clean up the solder pad using isopropyl alcohol

Kind Regards,
barclay66



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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another couple of posts removed. Again, if you have something constructive to say, feel free to post. If you're going to be passive/aggressive as 99% of the rest of the internet now appears to be, the post(s) will be removed. If it keeps happening, you may not have the opportunity ever again to post here.
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nidi wrote:
more VNB goodness




These images pretty much explain the hostility. This work is of poor quality and makes it easy to see why there's been so many problems with stability in recent years. I know that myself and Kurt always had to spend time resoldering joints and cleaning up the boards we would receive. Sloppy workmanship invariably leads to metal chips resulting in shorts. Once cleaned up the VIM's are great but not everyone has the time or inclination (and nor should they have to) deal with these types of problems. If you were to compare this work to say Dragan's it's like night and day.

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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jbmeyer13"]
nidi wrote:
more VNB goodness



These images pretty much explain the hostility. This work is of poor quality and makes it easy to see why there's been so many problems with stability in recent years. I know that myself and Kurt always had to spend time resoldering joints and cleaning up the boards we would receive. Sloppy workmanship invariably leads to metal chips resulting in shorts. Once cleaned up the VIM's are great but not everyone has the time or inclination (and nor should they have to) deal with these types of problems. If you were to compare this work to say Dragan's it's like night and day.


That's a nice write up Justin, I've been waiting for you to comment on it as being factual. However, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. What you don't know about those boards is wheels they were originally sent to me, they were already modified by someone else, who I won't mention their name. And would line to point out the Terrible Heat damage to those SOIC traces and board surface. That would clearly be the work of an novice, and definitely if someone with my skill level and as Nash had put it, the right tools. In my case that would be my temperature controlled Hakko soldering station. In other words I worked with what he had provided, removed the chip that was there and went with what I had been using all up to this year. I could never damage a board like that with my methods of replacing an IC or any other component. I was also waiting on Nidi to mention what was going on with the boards and that he had someone else doing extensive changes before he sent them to me. To include, one of the neck board as a real odd ball. That is why he was mentioning did I "balance them"
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
That's a nice write up Justin, I've been waiting for you to comment on it as being factual. However, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. What you don't know about those boards is wheels they were originally sent to me, they were already modified by someone else, who I won't mention their name
.
Quote:
I was also waiting on Nidi to mention what was going on with the boards and that he had someone else doing extensive changes before he sent them to me. To include, one of the neck board as a real odd ball. That is why he was mentioning did I "balance them"


You consistently say stuff like this; your famous line of "I won't talk about that or I won't say why". Just put it out there and stop playing coy. If someone else butchered these boards then state who it was. When you make statements like this it just looks like classic deflection. Take this for what it's worth-maybe you aren't guilty of this but your manner in addressing it sure plants seeds of doubt.

That aside, if this board was truly modified by someone else then IMO you should never have agreed to touch it as you open yourself up to these problems. As I said earlier- recipe for disaster. Modifying work like this is akin to polishing a turd.

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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbmeyer13 wrote:
mp20748 wrote:
That's a nice write up Justin, I've been waiting for you to comment on it as being factual. However, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. What you don't know about those boards is wheels they were originally sent to me, they were already modified by someone else, who I won't mention their name
.
Quote:
I was also waiting on Nidi to mention what was going on with the boards and that he had someone else doing extensive changes before he sent them to me. To include, one of the neck board as a real odd ball. That is why he was mentioning did I "balance them"


You consistently say stuff like this; your famous line of "I won't talk about that or I won't say why". Just put it out there and stop playing coy. If someone else butchered these boards then state who it was. When you make statements like this it just looks like classic deflection. Take this for what it's worth-maybe you aren't guilty of this but your manner in addressing it sure plants seeds of doubt.

That aside, if this board was truly modified by someone else then IMO you should never have agreed to touch it as you open yourself up to these problems. As I said earlier- recipe for disaster. Modifying work like this is akin to polishing a turd.


Hey, concerning mentioning the person who had previously modified the boards, that's not something I'd do> There would be no relevance for it here. And needlessly exposing or defaming anyone you already know it's not something I'll do.

now to the point of why would I modify the boards knowing those problems existed. Put it this way, from a service perspective you learn to be able to evaluate something and make a decision on if you think you could make a reliable repair. With that board set, I decided to go forward because the real damage there was on the PB board surface itself. Nothing really enough to make for an unstable of unreliable repair. I think I did quite good in re-working that chip to the board. At least that is what I've been assured of by not getting any complaints for the longest. So it must have been a good fix. And though there were problems reported, that means nothing to me, because the reports were not technically verified nor were the boards returned for me to confirm a problem.

So yes, it may look like a turd to you, but to someone who does repair/restore work, they would know what can be workable and what should not be considered. I was at a guys house last week who had several reel to reel tape players. He told me what people were paying for them these days, and when he mentioned some were being sold for around $15 grand. I thought wow, that's a lot of money, until I realized that there is a ton of old electronic gear that had a huge market today and people are willing to pay the money to get their hands on it. So in order to make that happen, someone would need to have both expertise and experience to bring a dead turd back to life. I count myself as being one of those people who can make that happen..Mr. Green

I have no interest in restoring reel to reel decks, but will be seeking them out and have two coming my way next week.
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nidi




Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 299
Location: Switzerland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: all Mike Parkers work Reply with quote

this VNB's have been going back and forth over the years.
nobody else touched those boards.

Mike has been my go to guy for the last 13 years



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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: all Mike Parkers work Reply with quote

nidi wrote:
this VNB's have been going back and forth over the years.
nobody else touched those boards.

Mike has been my go to guy for the last 13 years




Did you not tell me HK Steve had modified your boards before me?
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HK-Steve




Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Switzerland

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500, Epson 8100


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, This is very interesting.. I have not been on this forum for a long time. But been here since 2006.
But now I am the blame and being attacked for the issues that nidi is having. Awesome, thanks for making me the scape goat... naaaaaaaaaaaa.........Rolling Eyes

YES, I have modified many of nidi's boards, BUT
nidi has had a unmodified set of boards each time he has sent them to you or bought unmodified boards from you, so somehow I have messed with them???? How does that work.. Oh and the black or white goop all over them when they return..............
Including burnt video switching relays and many components with soldering iron damage or dry joints,
then the boards have had to been sent back to you, so they would work, extra cost etc...

so were they even tested before you shipped them out???????

Is NOT nice, that you "say" nidi does not have the right equipment to produce the desired result with your mods.. nidi has spent well and above for the right equipment, He has all the best equipment, as this is his passion to keep CRT alive, so this statement is so negative for someone who has spent so much money and frustration with trying to keep his passion alive.
YOU HAVE TAKEN THAT JOY FROM HIM.



also I am NOT nidi's calibrator, he has someone that does the whole setup from scratch, mechanical and color calibration who is amazing, he also calibrated my own, and many other proud Marquee users in Europe..

I can post some photos of my own solder work, am sure many others here could also show photos or excellent soldering skills. I am sure it will not be the substandard soldering that I have seen on the boards nidi has with your modifications. Anyone with the right equipment and experience can complete a good solder joint, smd or through hole, end of the story.



Great Forum Curt and Kal. Thumbs Up for all the hard work. This was the place to hang for CRT after Nicolas's forum got hacked, The Evil Twin was a open and great place to hang/chill.... so sorry it could not recover..


nidi and I have the same goal, an awesome image from a CRT projector.


Cheers
Steve

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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve your name came up only saying what he had told me, and that is that you had modified the neck boards that he sent me. Your acknowledging that you had modified boards for him here: "YES, I have modified many of nidi's boards" is exactly what I had mentioned to him, and his response was: "nobody else touched those boards"

So I was only mentioning what he himself had told me. So me being on this end, not knowing anything about you even knowing the guy or living near each other, was told that you modified the boards. How did I know about this, if he himself had not told me and you today confirmed exactly what he had told me.

No question I received 3 neck board that were previously modified.
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nidi




Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 299
Location: Switzerland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:



No question I received 3 neck board that were previously modified.



YES , BY YOU!!!!!
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, we are locking this thread now. It's not because anything that Nidi or Mike posted over the last 7 pages, it's because I've warned more than one forum member to stop getting involved and to stop name calling, and it hasn't. It went so far as me getting a PM saying that it's my fault this happened, when the transaction between Nidi and Mike occurred completely outside of this forum and the main website.

It's sad to see supposed grown men act like drama kings and queens, and others sitting around with the proverbial popcorn, egging others on. Really, to those few here and in other forums I see online, how old are you?

I don't have the time or energy to babysit this thread and delete pointless posts.

Nidi and Mike, I think you've both had ample time to post each side of the story, and I do hope that you both get this resolved to your satisfaction..outside of this forum.

Curt
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread locked at Curt's request.

Kal

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