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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2789 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Link Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:33 pm Post subject: Getting rid of raster ringing on Marquees |
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A few weeks ago someone was interested in my plans in raster ringing topic, and I've made a summary for him. I repost this information here with an intent that it could be useful for others as well, and this could be a base of an open source brainstorming, if you will.
I've spent a lot of time with studying basically all mainstream CRT projector's deflection circuits and tried to gather as many information about them as I could, even though I haven't seen every of these in action. Amongst all CRT projectors the Marquee have the worst reputation in raster ringing. While Sony G90 is thought one of the best and also there are also little complain about the Barco 909. The most accepted reason for ringing is the high interwinding capacitance in the deflection coil. Others discovered that the G90 has a significantly lower inductance deflection coils (~85uH / winding, which are always in parallel) than the Marquee (~270uH / winding, which are in parallel above 60kHz). Lower inductance would suggest lower interwinding capacitance, clear case... BUT, as I've mentioned there are little complaints about the Barco 909's raster ringing, and the 909 have an 1,8us standard retrace time, which is about the same as with the Marquee in short retrace above 60kHz. The funny thing is that the 909 have a (forum) reported coil inductance of 1,5mH (not switched) that is 10x of the Marquee coil, so one must think about its interwinding capacitance as well...
When my interest started in deflection circuits I only had a NEC XG135LC and a NEC 9PG xtra. The deflection circuit of the XG is very similar to the Marquee's, ie. there are different retrace time ranges depending on the scan frequency, but with the NEC the retrace time is fully automatically chosen, and unfortunately the lowest retrace time (1,4 us) which would be useful for the standard HD timings, is only selected in the 120-135kHz scan range, which of no use in HT. Anyway with a PC I tried a lot of exotic resolutions on the NEC to try out the different ranges. All-in-all I found the XG's deflection system having also remarkably low ringing. (A side note, I've made a hack to the XG to force the 1,4 us retrace above 60kHz scanrate, so standard HD timings could be also used, and there was no sign of raster ringing at all). I measured the inductance of the XG's deflection coils, it turned out to be 80uH/winding (that is either in series or parallel depending on scanrate, just like with Marquee) this is very similar to the G90's windings, but the NEC used the so called thin-neck tubes so the coils are no use in any 9" machines. I've also tested my NEC 9 PG xtra, that was never meant for short retrace applications as it is rated at 2,5us retrace time, but it also has a low inductance deflection coil (which is not switched over the range) of 190uH, this is very close to the XG's value, when we consider them in series (2x80uH vs. 190uH). I've made a simple setup to determine the resonance frequency of the NEC PG xtra's deflection coil. The result was 1,5MHz, I could not repeat this experiment on the XG for various reasons, but I managed to perform on the Marquee deflection coils and I got a 1,3MHz result, which is lower than the PG's but not significantly different. An 1,8us retrace pulse would equal to 277kHz frequency sine signal that is still more than 2 octave away from the measured resonance point), so I believe it is NOT the interwinding capacitance that has the most effect on raster ringing. Also this is supported by the fact that the 909 uses extremely high inductance coils, where the resonant frequency surely can't be significantly higher than say the Marquee's coil (which has 10 times smaller inductance on the other hand).
So this is where I strated to focus on deflection circuits.
The retrace time is simply given by the time constant of the deflection coils and the installed resonant capacitors. The minimum retrace time is limited by the blocking voltage of the drive transistors on the first hand, as the retrace time gets shorter the voltage peak gets larger for the same inductance. Generally for a given time constant the lower inductance you have the lower the voltage peak will be. This was a crucial point in the G90 deflection system as it is using bipolar transistors which only rated at 1500V, on the other hand the Barco 909 deflection circuit was designed to stand 3000V, the Marquee and the NEC XG was designed at 1800V (in Marquee Ultra pushed up to 2000V). the first idea was to use more up to date MOSFETS in the HDM so it would allow higher blocking voltage and decrease the retrace time with the hope that the ringing will settle down still in the blanking time not affecting the screen content. For this an old modification was dusted off , Dennis et. al. experimented with CREE SiC-MOSFETS to decrease heat dissipation. They were only focusing on the heat dissipation, but in the meantime the blocking voltage was also increased to 2400V with the FETs they used, but they forgot to match the resonant capacitors when they switched to two FETs instead of three, so they actually ran higher retrace times than the standard. With a friend we made the experiment focusing on the lowest possible retrace time, but it was a failure basically because the ringing only got worse.
Most CRT maker used MOSFETS in the deflection outputs which have built in protector diodes against the negative pulse that would occur during retrace. The Marquee uses 3 lower voltage FETs in series, and only relying on the built in damper diodes (ie. 3 diodes in series), regardless what the datasheets say the FET's built in diodes are usualy not very high quality, rather slow to turn on, high forward voltage. For some reason all the other Manufacturers added exernal diodes for suppression (which are by chance always faster than the built in diodes of the FETs), and also usualy they used much more FETs (NEC XG: 2x5 FET in series, Barco 3x3 FET in series, consider their built in diodes as well!), yet in the Barco there are I think 5 additional damper diodes. The G90 deflection circuit strongly relies on the good old 1250/70/90 series, only small modifications were made to it, it uses two parallel bipolar transistors for the Horizontal output, and there are a total of 7 (!) damper diodes added of two kinds: one high current, and other six lower current (but even faster) in 2x3 series-parallel configuration.
Now I'm currently in the progress of continuing the HDM experiments on my own machine. Very recently I also did the CREE MOSFET modification but I've selected the MOSFETS to have indeed the lowest disspiation (guranteed by their low on resistance) and the blocking voltage is not higher than the original 1800V, and I also kept the retrace times at their original value by modifying the original resonant caps. But I also added external (very fast) diodes of different types total of 6. Simulations showed to me that the inductance (ESL) of the capacitor's (legs) are playing an important role in ringing. Needless to say that Electrohome was the only manufacturer who intentionally put ferrite beads on the legs of the resonant capacitors. So I removed these as well. The result so far is that I have a very cool running HDM which actually produce a noticeably more ringing than the original HDM. But, hey I've made difference to the ringing performance of the Marquee without touching the deflection coils, I just need to go to the other direction
Seriously, my resonant capacitor setup is still not optimal for lowest inductance at the moment, so I certainly want to play with that further, also one clue could be the new FETs' lower channel resistance, causing worse Q factor in the HDM perhaps? (however the channel resistance difference seem insignificant compared to the 12 Ohm series resistor in the -B supply line).
_________________ projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Nice reverse engineering there
_________________ Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2789 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 2251 Location: The Netherlands
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Can we measure these coils with a simple peakatlas inductance meter? My 909 has some ringing too but I chose to get used to it However it would be nice if we could use all phosphor and have little ringing to blank.
_________________ 701s->runco933->8500ultra->hd1->hd350->vw100->cinemax+919sp+3x919+9500mp->cinemax+919sp(modded)+kuro600a
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2789 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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redfox001 wrote: | Can we measure these coils with a simple peakatlas inductance meter? My 909 has some ringing too but I chose to get used to it However it would be nice if we could use all phosphor and have little ringing to blank. |
Yes that meter would be appropriate to measure the coil inductance. I'd be glad if you'd take the effort and measure the Horizontal winding's inductance.
You have/had Marquee and 909 at the same time does the ringing appears to be the same on both machine?
_________________ projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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I made up a test yoke with a pair of variable inductors in series with each coil and adjusted them to see if there was any change of
the ringing that was visible in my test pattern.
I did not find that it made any visible difference.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2789 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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cmjohnson wrote: | I made up a test yoke with a pair of variable inductors in series with each coil and adjusted them to see if there was any change of
the ringing that was visible in my test pattern.
I did not find that it made any visible difference. |
I guess it depends on how much you alter the inductance. The retrace time clearly have an impact on the ringing as changing between short and long retrace in the Marquee show quite dramatic difference.
Also as you tune the inductance only, the retrace time changes accordingly.
The retrace time is given by: tr=pi*sqrt(L*C), where L is the total inductance of all coils, and C is the resonant capacitance.
A more precise experiment would be to have considerably different coil inductances, and tune the resonant capacitance so that all system would have the same retrace time (assuming we have no limitation for the flyback pulse magnitude) and only then compare the ringing behaviour.
But as I said earlier simulations point out that lead inductance of the resonant capacitors are also affect ringing, and the less capacitor you use the more their the inductance will be, but this is exactly how the shorter retrace time is achieved in our projectors.
_________________ projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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Curt Palme CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 24296 Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't think the issue is yoke related. After all, 1000s of Marquees were made, with no issues. I'd swap the CLM or deflection sub board.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 2251 Location: The Netherlands
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Link Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: |
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gjaky wrote: | redfox001 wrote: | Can we measure these coils with a simple peakatlas inductance meter? My 909 has some ringing too but I chose to get used to it However it would be nice if we could use all phosphor and have little ringing to blank. |
Yes that meter would be appropriate to measure the coil inductance. I'd be glad if you'd take the effort and measure the Horizontal winding's inductance.
You have/had Marquee and 909 at the same time does the ringing appears to be the same on both machine? |
On my present setup with the 909 I have standard 1080p@60 timings from my oppo and see a small band from say 10cm with some small waves in it (220cm total screen width). On my 9500 that I used to have I remember a larger area with somewhat bigger waves. But this is from memory and I am not saying the 909 solved the problem.
I try to do some measurements. The girlfriend takes a lot of my time lol
_________________ 701s->runco933->8500ultra->hd1->hd350->vw100->cinemax+919sp+3x919+9500mp->cinemax+919sp(modded)+kuro600a
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 2251 Location: The Netherlands
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Link Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I measured horizontal deflection 130,7uH +- 0,1uH
Barco 909.
Hmmm seems to be at least 10 times smaller than advertised.
_________________ 701s->runco933->8500ultra->hd1->hd350->vw100->cinemax+919sp+3x919+9500mp->cinemax+919sp(modded)+kuro600a
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2789 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Link Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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redfox001 wrote: | I measured horizontal deflection 130,7uH +- 0,1uH
Barco 909.
Hmmm seems to be at least 10 times smaller than advertised. |
Indeed it seems to be a bit low. Entering this value into the xls sheet gives 1.1us retrace time, while the advertised is 1.8us. BTW calculating backwards based on the retrace time the coil inductance should be around 400uH, so this thing is fishy either way
_________________ projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:21 am Post subject: |
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I think I've figured out how to tackle this, but would want to try it out before mentioning any details.
After talking the Craig, and giving thought to what happens when you change the timings, I no longer see the timings changing as the best way to get rid of the ringing. I instead now think there is some negatives in changing the timings for this. I'll need to get on the test bed unit to confirm my theory, but I'm sure I can tackle this.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2789 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Link Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:33 am Post subject: |
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mp20748 wrote: | I think I've figured out how to tackle this, but would want to try it out before mentioning any details.
After talking the Craig, and giving thought to what happens when you change the timings, I no longer see the timings changing as the best way to get rid of the ringing. I instead now think there is some negatives in changing the timings for this. I'll need to get on the test bed unit to confirm my theory, but I'm sure I can tackle this. |
Sounds very mysterious, perhaps you can tell a bit more details, even if it is not tested yet..
_________________ projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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gjaky wrote: |
Sounds very mysterious, perhaps you can tell a bit more details, even if it is not tested yet.. |
It should... and I will go into some detail, but later. There are a few things I need to look at first, but for now, it's very important to first isolate where it's really coming from on this particular projector model. I have been thinking about and looking at some of what Scott had said about it, and that leads me to pick up kinda where he left off.
But I promise I will share what I find out, as there are some other things I will also be sharing with you in due time..
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lydmann
Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Norway
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Link Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Any progress?
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 Posts: 2789 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Link Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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lydmann wrote: | Any progress? |
From my side, little. Until recently I only had one deflection board on wich I worked and used, now I have a backup board as well, and that could serve as a reference too.
BTW I fired up the modified HDM last week, and it wasn't that bad actually as I remembered, so a direct comparison for sure will be handy.
I also got some parts for improving the experimental board, I just did not have time to play with that.
_________________ projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I'll also be getting back to this dreadful problem on the Marquee, and it should be soon.
I have my shop better setup for this, juts need to move the test unit there and make this happen.
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 2158 Location: nederland
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Link Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Getting rid of raster ringing on Marquees |
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gjaky wrote: | A few weeks ago someone was interested in my plans in raster ringing topic, and I've made a summary for him. I repost this information here with an intent that it could be useful for others as well, and this could be a base of an open source brainstorming, if you will.
I've spent a lot of time with studying basically all mainstream CRT projector's deflection circuits and tried to gather as many information about them as I could, even though I haven't seen every of these in action. Amongst all CRT projectors the Marquee have the worst reputation in raster ringing. While Sony G90 is thought one of the best and also there are also little complain about the Barco 909. The most accepted reason for ringing is the high interwinding capacitance in the deflection coil. Others discovered that the G90 has a significantly lower inductance deflection coils (~85uH / winding, which are always in parallel) than the Marquee (~270uH / winding, which are in parallel above 60kHz). Lower inductance would suggest lower interwinding capacitance, clear case... BUT, as I've mentioned there are little complaints about the Barco 909's raster ringing, and the 909 have an 1,8us standard retrace time, which is about the same as with the Marquee in short retrace above 60kHz. The funny thing is that the 909 have a (forum) reported coil inductance of 1,5mH (not switched) that is 10x of the Marquee coil, so one must think about its interwinding capacitance as well...
When my interest started in deflection circuits I only had a NEC XG135LC and a NEC 9PG xtra. The deflection circuit of the XG is very similar to the Marquee's, ie. there are different retrace time ranges depending on the scan frequency, but with the NEC the retrace time is fully automatically chosen, and unfortunately the lowest retrace time (1,4 us) which would be useful for the standard HD timings, is only selected in the 120-135kHz scan range, which of no use in HT. Anyway with a PC I tried a lot of exotic resolutions on the NEC to try out the different ranges. All-in-all I found the XG's deflection system having also remarkably low ringing. (A side note, I've made a hack to the XG to force the 1,4 us retrace above 60kHz scanrate, so standard HD timings could be also used, and there was no sign of raster ringing at all). I measured the inductance of the XG's deflection coils, it turned out to be 80uH/winding (that is either in series or parallel depending on scanrate, just like with Marquee) this is very similar to the G90's windings, but the NEC used the so called thin-neck tubes so the coils are no use in any 9" machines. I've also tested my NEC 9 PG xtra, that was never meant for short retrace applications as it is rated at 2,5us retrace time, but it also has a low inductance deflection coil (which is not switched over the range) of 190uH, this is very close to the XG's value, when we consider them in series (2x80uH vs. 190uH). I've made a simple setup to determine the resonance frequency of the NEC PG xtra's deflection coil. The result was 1,5MHz, I could not repeat this experiment on the XG for various reasons, but I managed to perform on the Marquee deflection coils and I got a 1,3MHz result, which is lower than the PG's but not significantly different. An 1,8us retrace pulse would equal to 277kHz frequency sine signal that is still more than 2 octave away from the measured resonance point), so I believe it is NOT the interwinding capacitance that has the most effect on raster ringing. Also this is supported by the fact that the 909 uses extremely high inductance coils, where the resonant frequency surely can't be significantly higher than say the Marquee's coil (which has 10 times smaller inductance on the other hand).
So this is where I strated to focus on deflection circuits.
The retrace time is simply given by the time constant of the deflection coils and the installed resonant capacitors. The minimum retrace time is limited by the blocking voltage of the drive transistors on the first hand, as the retrace time gets shorter the voltage peak gets larger for the same inductance. Generally for a given time constant the lower inductance you have the lower the voltage peak will be. This was a crucial point in the G90 deflection system as it is using bipolar transistors which only rated at 1500V, on the other hand the Barco 909 deflection circuit was designed to stand 3000V, the Marquee and the NEC XG was designed at 1800V (in Marquee Ultra pushed up to 2000V). the first idea was to use more up to date MOSFETS in the HDM so it would allow higher blocking voltage and decrease the retrace time with the hope that the ringing will settle down still in the blanking time not affecting the screen content. For this an old modification was dusted off , Dennis et. al. experimented with CREE SiC-MOSFETS to decrease heat dissipation. They were only focusing on the heat dissipation, but in the meantime the blocking voltage was also increased to 2400V with the FETs they used, but they forgot to match the resonant capacitors when they switched to two FETs instead of three, so they actually ran higher retrace times than the standard. With a friend we made the experiment focusing on the lowest possible retrace time, but it was a failure basically because the ringing only got worse.
Most CRT maker used MOSFETS in the deflection outputs which have built in protector diodes against the negative pulse that would occur during retrace. The Marquee uses 3 lower voltage FETs in series, and only relying on the built in damper diodes (ie. 3 diodes in series), regardless what the datasheets say the FET's built in diodes are usualy not very high quality, rather slow to turn on, high forward voltage. For some reason all the other Manufacturers added exernal diodes for suppression (which are by chance always faster than the built in diodes of the FETs), and also usualy they used much more FETs (NEC XG: 2x5 FET in series, Barco 3x3 FET in series, consider their built in diodes as well!), yet in the Barco there are I think 5 additional damper diodes. The G90 deflection circuit strongly relies on the good old 1250/70/90 series, only small modifications were made to it, it uses two parallel bipolar transistors for the Horizontal output, and there are a total of 7 (!) damper diodes added of two kinds: one high current, and other six lower current (but even faster) in 2x3 series-parallel configuration.
Now I'm currently in the progress of continuing the HDM experiments on my own machine. Very recently I also did the CREE MOSFET modification but I've selected the MOSFETS to have indeed the lowest disspiation (guranteed by their low on resistance) and the blocking voltage is not higher than the original 1800V, and I also kept the retrace times at their original value by modifying the original resonant caps. But I also added external (very fast) diodes of different types total of 6. Simulations showed to me that the inductance (ESL) of the capacitor's (legs) are playing an important role in ringing. Needless to say that Electrohome was the only manufacturer who intentionally put ferrite beads on the legs of the resonant capacitors. So I removed these as well. The result so far is that I have a very cool running HDM which actually produce a noticeably more ringing than the original HDM. But, hey I've made difference to the ringing performance of the Marquee without touching the deflection coils, I just need to go to the other direction
Seriously, my resonant capacitor setup is still not optimal for lowest inductance at the moment, so I certainly want to play with that further, also one clue could be the new FETs' lower channel resistance, causing worse Q factor in the HDM perhaps? (however the channel resistance difference seem insignificant compared to the 12 Ohm series resistor in the -B supply line). |
_________________ 1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 2158 Location: nederland
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Link Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:50 am Post subject: |
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scott mentioned retrace timins so i put the caps back.
there is a formula for calculating retrace timings on page 39 or 40 from memory from the same scott aka tse.
the cree fets have been replaced by wolfspeed fets on the farnell site at much lower cost.
_________________ 1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 2158 Location: nederland
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Link Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:53 am Post subject: |
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scott also said the fets resistance also should improve hor linearity.
_________________ 1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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