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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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 Link Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: Lumagen Radiance XS+ CRT Projector users |
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Hello guys,
I was wondering how many people here are using the XS+ with their CRT projectors.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1608
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| Link Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
i have a Lumagen XS without the + option.
But it is able to do 817p@72Hz but not 1080@72Hz.
cheers
ElTopo
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1335
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:05 am Post subject: |
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I'm using an upgraded XE+, XS's bigger brother. Handles 1080P/72 with ease.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Michael- Is their something more specific you are asking about?
The tricky thing with the + models is that the chips vary from machine to machine so having the "+" option doesn't mean you'll have a high enough clock rate to run 1080P/72 on a Marquee. The G90 has much less raster ringing and doesn't require porch timings that are as extreme as the Marquee does. The BW requirement is 195mhz for a Marquee where as I think with the G90 it's well under 190mhz.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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The PLUS option guarantees that the XE or XS can run 1080p 75Hz with standard timings for 1080p (~185.5 MHz). As Justin says, if you increase the porches you will require a higher clock speed than regular 1080p 72Hz. Where the max clock is on any given PLUS unit varies, but most PLUS models can do about 192 MHz reliably. The very best can do about 195 MHz, but I have seen units that could only reach ~188 MHz.
The other factor is the HDMI receiver chip on your Moome or other input trasncoder. The HDMI input on your projector may not be capable of receiving such high clock rates as they are well past speck.
craigr
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: added options |
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Hello guys,
I'm wondering if Lumagen would do something with autosensing the analogue inputs.
I was always annoyed when changing input formats on either SDI or compo9nent inputs that it would go black and
needed to be switched off and on again to sense the incoming format.
as I'm using the XS for playback of different formats that change after 3-4 minutes (vlideoclips)
that I have to switch it on and off after a format change.
HDMI seems to be not a problem but the analog inputs only sense the format when you switch to the input.
Michael
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | The PLUS option guarantees that the XE or XS can run 1080p 75Hz with standard timings for 1080p (~185.5 MHz). As Justin says, if you increase the porches you will require a higher clock speed than regular 1080p 72Hz. Where the max clock is on any given PLUS unit varies, but most PLUS models can do about 192 MHz reliably. The very best can do about 195 MHz, but I have seen units that could only reach ~188 MHz.
craigr |
Craig, what happens with the picture when you have one of those not so good ones.
does it break up? frames lost every now and then?
what about the higher models , the ones that came out before the 4K versions?
can they be used with CRT projectors?
do they allow all the settings like the XS does?
Thanks
Michael
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | The PLUS option guarantees that the XE or XS can run 1080p 75Hz with standard timings for 1080p (~185.5 MHz). As Justin says, if you increase the porches you will require a higher clock speed than regular 1080p 72Hz. Where the max clock is on any given PLUS unit varies, but most PLUS models can do about 192 MHz reliably. The very best can do about 195 MHz, but I have seen units that could only reach ~188 MHz.
craigr |
Craig, what happens with the picture when you have one of those not so good ones.
does it break up? frames lost every now and then?
what about the higher models , the ones that came out before the 4K versions?
can they be used with CRT projectors?
do they allow all the settings like the XS does?
Thanks
Michael |
You will start to see digital artifacts as the clock rate is pushed too far. This can be sparkles, streaks, odd pixilation, or no picture at all.
The XS and XE are pre-4k 1080p models. The PLUS version is the same unit with the FPGA overclocked. Aside from the 18GHz PRO units, the very best units for CRT (that do not support 4k sources) are the 2143 and 2144. These only support 1080p on the input, but can support clock rates on the output all the way up to 4k 60Hz. The 2143/4 also have extremely low jitter. You can easily exceed the limits of an HD HDMI input chip so here the limit will be the Moome card or other transcoder.
I always modify the Moome boards and raise the voltage to the HDMI chip and remove the gamma circuit. After raising the voltage, the Moome boards top out at between 200-225 MHz. Usually as you get to the limit on the Moome boards you start to see trailing and odd colors.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: added options |
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| nidi wrote: | Hello guys,
I'm wondering if Lumagen would do something with autosensing the analogue inputs.
I was always annoyed when changing input formats on either SDI or compo9nent inputs that it would go black and
needed to be switched off and on again to sense the incoming format.
as I'm using the XS for playback of different formats that change after 3-4 minutes (vlideoclips)
that I have to switch it on and off after a format change.
HDMI seems to be not a problem but the analog inputs only sense the format when you switch to the input.
Michael |
I'm confused by this. Are you saying that with analog component and SDI you have to power cycle your XE? This is not correct behavior if so. The component and SDI should easily resync with switches between resolutions.
craigr
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: added options |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
I'm confused by this. Are you saying that with analog component and SDI you have to power cycle your XE? This is not correct behavior if so. The component and SDI should easily resync with switches between resolutions.
craigr |
Yes, I always had/have to do this on my XS+
Michael
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
I always modify the Moome boards and raise the voltage to the HDMI chip and remove the gamma circuit. After raising the voltage, the Moome boards top out at between 200-225 MHz. Usually as you get to the limit on the Moome boards you start to see trailing and odd colors.
craigr |
Interesting, how easy can the voltage be increased ?
is Mike Parker doing this to his special Moome cards for his mods?
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | nidi wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | The PLUS option guarantees that the XE or XS can run 1080p 75Hz with standard timings for 1080p (~185.5 MHz). As Justin says, if you increase the porches you will require a higher clock speed than regular 1080p 72Hz. Where the max clock is on any given PLUS unit varies, but most PLUS models can do about 192 MHz reliably. The very best can do about 195 MHz, but I have seen units that could only reach ~188 MHz.
craigr |
Craig, what happens with the picture when you have one of those not so good ones.
does it break up? frames lost every now and then?
what about the higher models , the ones that came out before the 4K versions?
can they be used with CRT projectors?
do they allow all the settings like the XS does?
Thanks
Michael |
You will start to see digital artifacts as the clock rate is pushed too far. This can be sparkles, streaks, odd pixilation, or no picture at all.
The XS and XE are pre-4k 1080p models. The PLUS version is the same unit with the FPGA overclocked. Aside from the 18GHz PRO units, the very best units for CRT (that do not support 4k sources) are the 2143 and 2144. These only support 1080p on the input, but can support clock rates on the output all the way up to 4k 60Hz. The 2143/4 also have extremely low jitter. You can easily exceed the limits of an HD HDMI input chip so here the limit will be the Moome card or other transcoder.
I always modify the Moome boards and raise the voltage to the HDMI chip and remove the gamma circuit. After raising the voltage, the Moome boards top out at between 200-225 MHz. Usually as you get to the limit on the Moome boards you start to see trailing and odd colors.
craigr |
Hey Craig,
Have you ever tested above 200Mhz pixel clock out of a 2143/44 unit, to confirm it will alow custum timings and resolutions over 1080P 200Mhz? I imagine you are running a pro with your G90 and since it's likely a small market interested in this feature I was wondering if it were field tested.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | Hey Craig,
Have you ever tested above 200Mhz pixel clock out of a 2143/44 unit, to confirm it will alow custum timings and resolutions over 1080P 200Mhz? I imagine you are running a pro with your G90 and since it's likely a small market interested in this feature I was wondering if it were field tested. |
Yes, I have multiple 2143/4 units on CRT projectors where I am running at 195 MHz. I even have some that I push up to 200+ MHz, but I become concerned with the integrity of the Moome board at that point. It may work one day and not another or degrade over time. That aside, the 214x has no problem running 1080p at 200 MHz. I even had my G90 setup for a bit with a 2143 running 225 MHz for 3D.
craigr
_________________
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Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: |
I always modify the Moome boards and raise the voltage to the HDMI chip and remove the gamma circuit. After raising the voltage, the Moome boards top out at between 200-225 MHz. Usually as you get to the limit on the Moome boards you start to see trailing and odd colors.
craigr |
Interesting, how easy can the voltage be increased ?
is Mike Parker doing this to his special Moome cards for his mods? |
It's easy to change the voltage if you know how to do SMD rework and soldering  That said, Moome gives me information conditionally that I do not disclose it. He told me specifically never to share the info with anyone. I don't think Moome wants a bunch of people frying their HDMI boards. The HDMI chip has a voltage range in which it's allowed to run according to the manufacturer. Moome is conservative and runs it at the lowest voltage in the spec. I adjust the voltage as needed on site usually and will often run them at maximum voltage spec or as much as 5% above spec. So far none have failed.
I don't know if Mike changes the voltages or not. Mike's mods don't really require a higher voltage, so I would not be surprised if he does not change the voltage. I started raising the voltage when I was having difficulty with 1080p 72Hz, but it turned out that the problem was not the Moome board. I started raising the voltage again for 3D because on most CRT 3D setups I run 720p 96Hz with huge blanking top and bottom so that the Lumagen is at around 192 MHz. This almost always requires the Moome voltage to be increased.
I think way back when while talking to Mike on the phone I told him how to raise the voltage after Moome said it was OK. But, memory fades and that was years ago and could have been something else entirely. I do know that I told Mike about a cool way to remove the gamma circuit that he was unaware of and that was years ago now too.
Best,
craigr
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: |
I always modify the Moome boards and raise the voltage to the HDMI chip and remove the gamma circuit. After raising the voltage, the Moome boards top out at between 200-225 MHz. Usually as you get to the limit on the Moome boards you start to see trailing and odd colors.
craigr |
Interesting, how easy can the voltage be increased ?
is Mike Parker doing this to his special Moome cards for his mods? |
No, and that's because the ceiling these days seem to not exceed 200mhz, and 1080P 72 is below that. But thinking about this raising the ceiling should make better for head-room that should be more revealing in image overall. It's not something I can try right now, or I could borrow a Lumagen to get to the bottom of this.
What I do on my latest Moome cards, that was disputed by a novice is modify the B+ to the DAC's. This is NOT a discovery of mine, but a requirement or recommendation from the chips manufacturer, for getting best signal/noise performance from the DAC itself. Not really necessary, but a definite must for best low noise performance from the DAC and that was my goal. But I understand why it was not understood, something that require a true higher bandwidth and fast video chain to even discern.
But to get better results from an improved head-room HDMI, you would also need a better overall flat response video chain. and your specially modified 03 VIM would make perfect for this. So if I had thought of this I should have made this happen for you. Otherwise and if you're not running 3D, I don't think it's necessary, because a 200mhz window should be adequate.
Craig should show up more around here as to help some of you guys get some real insight into this stuff, because too much BS has been posted everywhere, from novices and those without a solid background in this stuff. Blows my emails and text up trying to stir things right, though some of it is not my expertise. But also I'm thankful that Gjaky has started posting more on the deeper technical things, because he has confirmed some things I've been saying, and that is the limitations on the stock boards for one (196mhz.. ) I won't dispute that a person can actually own a Magic Wand that will transform the boards to do what they claim, only that's it's BS if they can achieve such without such wand..
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Switzerland
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| Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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No, and that's because the ceiling these days seem to not exceed 200mhz, and 1080P 72 is below that. But thinking about this raising the ceiling should make better for head-room that should be more revealing in image overall. It's not something I can try right now, or I could borrow a Lumagen to get to the bottom of this.[/quote]
Mike, there are people that run 1080P 75 Hz. 25P on 50 Hz just hurts the eyes.
and it's very tight with the bandwidth and pixel clock to move the raster ringing out.
I'd be happier to have just a little bit more pixel clock so the porches can just be a little bit more.
Michael
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: |
No, and that's because the ceiling these days seem to not exceed 200mhz, and 1080P 72 is below that. But thinking about this raising the ceiling should make better for head-room that should be more revealing in image overall. It's not something I can try right now, or I could borrow a Lumagen to get to the bottom of this. |
Mike, there are people that run 1080P 75 Hz. 25P on 50 Hz just hurts the eyes.
and it's very tight with the bandwidth and pixel clock to move the raster ringing out.
I'd be happier to have just a little bit more pixel clock so the porches can just be a little bit more.
Michael[/quote]
Then you'll have to upgrade from the XS+ to a newer Radiance. The 2041 has two outputs; the first is limited to 1080p/60 but the second can output 2160p/30 which means the pixel clock is something like 300mhz. However, that is a canned setting and I'm not sure if the 2041 can do a custom 1080p/75 timing on that second output. CIR, can you confirm?
The 214x units can do all sorts of custom resolutions per Craig's comments above. My guess is that will be your best bet if you need to push the clock past 200mhz.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Link Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | Then you'll have to upgrade from the XS+ to a newer Radiance. The 2041 has two outputs; the first is limited to 1080p/60 but the second can output 2160p/30 which means the pixel clock is something like 300mhz. However, that is a canned setting and I'm not sure if the 2041 can do a custom 1080p/75 timing on that second output. CIR, can you confirm?
The 214x units can do all sorts of custom resolutions per Craig's comments above. My guess is that will be your best bet if you need to push the clock past 200mhz. |
Honestly at this point I think the 20xx is the least desirable for CRT of the modern Lumagen processors. The XE+ and XS+ are great however, the 214x is the best end of life VP for CRT. If you are looking at used Lumagens and want the best for CRT than the 214x is top dog unless you want to run 3D using the Moome card output. Only the XE, XS, and Mini can make use of the protocol. The 214x needs a 3D output added to the unit its self and the chances of finding one used are slim. I was the only Lumagen dealer who installed 214x units with 3D outputs and I didn't install many. If you buy a 214x and want me to add a 3D output I can do it (I think the price is $250 but I'd have to check).
craigr
_________________
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JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
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Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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SPL800
Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 164
Location: Israel
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| Link Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: lumagen purch |
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i'm sorry if i broke to this thread but i think its related if not please tell me will open separately
my video chain is:
dune hd base 3 (streamer)
Audio design associate (suite 7.1 HD A/V PRO)
LUMAGEN RADIANCE XD (hdmi - dvi cable)
Lumagen Vision HDQ Video Processor (5 bnc connector to PJ)
barco 1209g
the picture is great. my question is - the picture is cut on top and bottom. very very small fix is needed.( i can live with that due to 16:9).
(for example i'm missing the taskbar on windows page)
be very happy to know with which porch timing value should i change in order to get full picture size?
sorry for my english not my father or mother tang
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1608
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| Link Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Check if blanking is active on top and bottom.
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