CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

km987654 · Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:16 am Post subject:

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

I'm going to try to search my memory/dig up my notes. I recall that there is an internal menu setting or two in the G90 that may be in play with your described issue.

I would suggest that you experiment with the sync settings. It's one of those that affects things.

I thought I had a problem with two G90s but it was just those settings. Once they were adjusted to the right selections, the image
became completely stable and that includes after being fed via a Lumagen scaler, albeit an older one. (Vision HDQ)

**kal** · Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject:

Have you gone through the Moome manual and done the setup items for the G90 (things like setting the input clamp, etc)?

Manual is here: http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/ifb_fhdv3_v11_20140228.pdf

Kal

Madmanaenewman · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Canada

I will attempt to list all relevant settings as best as I can complete with my understandings/guesses/conclusions/questions/etc. where applicable.
Graphics card:
The NVIDIA control panel has the ability to customize the resolution, complete with ample warning that it could damage whatever the signal is being sent to if one does not first ensure that such equipment can accept the custom resolution. If I connect the moome card to the graphics card this ability is not available (presumably to prevent someone from mucking about with this feature?). Without it plugged in I can access this feature and I assume that the settings it brings up are the current full settings which are presumably what the computer is sending to the moome card when it too is connected. These are the settings: 1920x 1080, 60Hz progressive, color depth (bpp) = 32 (cannot be changed), Standard = “automatic” (can change to GTF, DMT, CVT, CVT reduced blank or manual), Active pixels 1920 x 1080, Front Porch 88 x 4, Synk Width 44 x 5, total pixels 2200 x 1125, Polarity = + for both Horizontal and vertical, refresh rate = 67.50 KHz, 60.00 (59.000 tp 61.000) and Pixel clock = 148.5000MHz.
The above settings concern the display resolution. There are settings to do with colour and 3D as well but I am guessing that, for now at least, they are immaterial to the problem currently experienced.
I assume I don’t need to change any of this or otherwise muck around with these settings as I understand/guess that it is more a matter of ensuring the moome/G90 can receive this signal.
Moome card:
Starting with their “installation example on Sony VPH-G90”, I have confirmed that input – A is set to RGB but inputs B and C are not accessible. In the moome manual it clearly shows input
B being selected (green text) and set to RGB, while the G90 manual states that with any card other than the IFB-12/12A installed this item cannot be selected which is indeed the case with me (white text). If this is a problem I have no idea how to solve it. In short I cannot do what the moome manual directs me to do and the manual for the G90 confirms that I shouldn’t be able to do it.
I managed at last to change the clamp to H/C. One cannot follow the directions in the moome manual which has you changing the setting prior to connecting the signal, when in fact unless the signal is already connected the clamp setting cannot be changed from Auto. Moreover, as soon as the signal is disconnected the clamp reverts to auto. The G90 manual states that the clamp can only be adjusted if the input is RGB, so perhaps the fact that one cannot set input B to RGB explains why one cannot save the clamp as H/C? Obviously one shouldn’t need to set the clamp every time one wants to watch a movie, so is there a way around this problem that I am missing? If I mute the signal using the moome remote the clamp stays set, but that doesn’t solve anything. Neither the video memory or input memory settings save the clamp and I don’t see any other way around this.
I don’t see anything else from the moome manual of relevance to the current issues.
On the G90 I have set the internal osc pattern to 5. I haven’t really figured out what this is for but I suspect 5 is the correct setting. The video memory is 14 which is the only memory above 13 that is stored which suggests to me that the G90 has correctly read the input signal and created a memory to store the information in. Video memory is off but at this point I don’t imagine this setting matters.
While I have not studied the entire G90 manual I really didn’t see anything else that strikes me as potentially critical to the issue at hand. Time to try the Lumagen…
Lumagen:
So I introduced the lumage and reset to factory defaults. My tv has no problem (it is connected to output 1 as I am writing this post and viewing the lumagen settings), but on the G90 (connected through output 2) I get flashing images not only of the signal but also of the menu (when set to input b). I can just make out that the input signal is read as RPG but the clamp settings cannot be accessed. The input memory is now 15 and the FH value jumps between 63.98 and 67.51KHz as follows … blank screen, picture (FH = 63.98, but only for an instant), FH changes to 67.51, screen goes blank again and the process repeats (that has to be a clue).
These are the settings: Under “Input 8D” (I plugged the HDMI cable from the computer to input 8), type is Auto (RGB), level is video, Video EDID is Default, Hotplug is normal, Auto Aspect Control is off and aspect set is “no”. Video Setup is 1080o60, size is 1.85 which I think should be 16:9 but I cannot change it, Output Setup in 2D is Custom – (Auto 2,1), CMS 0, Style 0, VidOut yes on 1 & 2. Mode Display Timing settings are Vtotal 1125, Htotal 2200, Mode p, Vactive 1080, Hactive 1920, VFront 4, Hfront 88, Vsync 5, Hsync 44, Vrate 59.94 Clock 148351648.
In summary, after spending many long nights reading the manuals and trying everything I can think of it seems to me that my settings are correct but the equipment doesn’t work. Firstly there is no way to set input B to RGB (maybe not a problem) and then set the clamp to H/C and keep it there, though once done the signal looks fine when taken directly from the computer and secondly the lumagen seems to recognize the input from the computer save for the aspect ratio and says it is sending it correctly to the G90 but the G90 cannot handle whatever the lumagen is actually sending even though the TV can.
I also tried another source (my nephew’s game) with the same results and I tried the other HDMI input on the moome with identical results.

**kal** · Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject:

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

I focused on this:

Madmanaenewman · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Canada

**kal** · Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:57 pm Post subject:

Ok - so another thing to consider is that the hdmi cable to the g90 may be causing problems. Try swapping hdmi cables between the tv and g90. The g90 is likely not moveable but everything else is smaller/lighter and can be moved for temporary testing.

I don't have any of the things you're using (pc, radiance, g90, your specific tv) but I would bet configuration issues between the devices. Especially considering that the pc -> radiance -> tv works fine (no never answered this question, but I'm assuming the answer was 'yes'). CRT projectors, especially the G90, are complex devices.

Kal

Madmanaenewman · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Canada

For anyone reading this post this next paragraph is the single most important one to take to heart:

Why is Kal asking me to test the cable? I already proved the cable works just fine and to test it as he suggests I will have to remove equipment from my rack and find a way to hook it to the projector with a shorter length. Oh well, let's humor him....Oh my, it was the cable! Problem solved! Boy, if someone is spending their valuable time trying to help you out with a problem you just have to follow their advice no matter how certain you are that it won't solve a thing. I hadn't eaten breakfast yet, but this dish of humble pie isn't what I had in mind.

In retrospect I should not be surprised. After all, I had tried everything else! Moreover, after posting my initial problem Lumagen sent cable specifications to Kal which he posted on the website, and my cable (while marketed as being capable of anything I was throwing at it and being Monoprice who are known for great products) did not meet Lumagen's specifications. It works as proven by the fact that it sends a readable signal from most sources to the G90, but it doesn't work with the Radiance 2143.

It only took me about 40 hours to get a steady signal from the lumagen. I can hardly wait for my screen so I can proceed to the next step.

Cheers

Thank you to everyone who offered their advice, all of which I carefully considered, and a huge thanks to you Kal for sticking with me.

**kal** · Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject:

Glad to hear you got it solved!

Kal

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

I know a little bit about humble pie. A good one has some crow in it, in addition to some of your own foot flavor as well.

km987654 · Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:47 am Post subject:

You gotta love this hobby Thumbs Up

Madmanaenewman · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Canada

I have a new problem, namely that I cannot play 3D content.
To update, the new 18GBPS @ 60 Hz cable arrived (it works great) leaving only my screen and sound system to arrive. To recap: My computer with a high end gaming graphics card (NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070) feeds a Lumagen Radiance 2143. From there output 1 goes to a small TV (acts as my monitor) and output 2 feeds the latest Moome card installed in a Sony G90. I have 3D NOW glasses and emitter.
I have a legal copy of the latest version of CyberLink’s Power DVD, Ultra Edition. It works great for sending 2D material to either display (TV or G90).
The NVIDIA Control panel shows two “HD 3D” resolutions, being 1080p 1920 x 1080 (native) with 50, 59 and 60 Hz refresh rates and 1080p, 1920 x 1080 with 23 or 24 Hz refresh rates. I also have the ability to create custom resolutions.
As I write this, 720p at 50 Hz is chosen and this displays 2D content on both the TV and the G90. I can mount an ISO and launch the movie in Power DVD. Depending on the file it will either play it in 2D or it will come up to some variation of the following message: “The disc has recognized that your player and/or display does not support 3D playback or your player firmware requires updating. To begin your 3D experience, please insert this disc into a 3D-enabled Blu-ray player and connect to a 3D enabled TV display with an HDMI cable, or insert your disc into a 3D-enabled computer with a Blu-ray drive.”
I don’t have an actual Blu-ray player to see if that works, but I never had problems before when I had a very basic computer playing iso files mounted on a virtual disc using Power DVD sending the content to a 3D plasma TV (all of which was stolen, hence my new equipment). This doesn’t sound like the problem.
I am surprised that the computer wants to play in 50Hz, but if I change the setting to 59 or 60 Hz two things happen – The TV blacks out and the G90 shows a top/bottom image (it often does that). In other words, the image is squished vertically and displayed twice. It is as if I was playing a Top/Bottom 3D movie in 2D. If I invoke the menu of the lumagen it also repeats, but if I bring up the menu of the G90 it is normal. Somewhat to my surprise, 1080p at 24 Hz or 23 Hz (still 3d) displays fine on both displays. It still won’t play 3d content. Various 2D resolutions also display, but it seems logical to settle on 720p @50 Hz 3D.
I notice on the “info” menu item of the lumagen that it says “3D Type:FrmP/Off”, whatever that means. Game mode is also off.
So if both displays are happy at 720/50/3D and if the computer and software are both supposed to support 3D and if the Lumagen and the G90 also are supposed to support 3D then maybe the problem is with the EDID. In other words, maybe the software isn’t sending 3D content because it isn’t receiving confirmation that the displays can take it?
I changed the HDMI Video EDID feature to “passback out2” (from default) to ensure that the lumagen is telling the computer to pass back whatever the Moome card it trying to say. I have also under 3D output options changed “Out2 is 3D capable” from Auto to Yes. Sounds logical, but still no luck.
Frustrated I restored to factory defaults which caused me to lose both displays. No panic, I learned long ago to take the lumagen out of the equation, plug the TV directly to the computer and reboot as that tends to reset things so to speak. I reintroduce the lumagen and reboot again and now the lumagen is claiming 1080i 2D to be native and 720p at 60 Hz works on both displays. No 3D of course, but weird and frustrating just the same.
I am totally lost and confused and frustrated. Nobody claimed this would be plug and play, but I was hoping I wouldn’t need a master’s degree in Audio technologies either. Sigh. Help.

**kal** · Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:32 pm Post subject:

Do you have a 'regular' TV in the house that supports 3D?

If yes, what I'd try first is hooking the PC *directly* to that TV and try getting 3D to work right as it sounds like the issues are possibly PC related. Or borrow a Blu-ray player that supports 3D playback (most do these days).

The above will let you confirm that it's a PC (driver/software/config) issue.

Kal

Madmanaenewman · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Canada

As for getting a Blu-ray player, it appears that to get 3D support I would have to pay 500. Anything less at Best Buy and no 3D support. I don't know where to borrow one, but it may not be required. No go on the TV either.

Your comment however got me to thinking about drivers, and after downloading the most recent driver for my graphics card got me one step further. It took some mucking about but I can now get perfect 3d...from the NVIDIA test pattern.

My current guess is that it has something to do with the Graphics card, and so I posted the following on the NVIDIA forum:

My computer graphics card is an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070. This feeds a Lumagen Radiance 2143 video processor. From there output 1 goes to a small TV (which acts as my monitor) and output 2 feeds a Sony
IFB-FULLHD v3 HDMI 1.4 Input Card (by Moome) installed in a Sony G90 CRT projector. I have 3D NOW glasses and an emitter. As many will not know what those components are, the Radiance does the processing to convert the 3D signal into something the Sony CRT projector can understand and display, while the IFB-FULLHD v3 HDMI card interfaces with and controls the 3D glasses. With this setup I should be able to get 3D content at 720p, 120Hz or even at custom resolutions like 1080p75Hz. Ha, after many long hours the only 3D content I can manage is the NVIDIA test pattern.

The only setting combination that worked for the test screen is 720p, 1280 x 720 at 50Hz for the 3D resolution setting and 1920 x 1080, 24HZ for the "test stereoscopic 3D effects" setting.

I am using the latest version of PowerDVD Ultra to play content. If I don't enable the "stereoscopic 3D" I get the message that the either the source equipment or the display does not support 3D. When I enable stereoscopic 3D I can run the test OK at the settings I mentioned but and I no longer get the message about equipment not being 3D capable but it does not play properly. Sometimes I get a 2D image, sometimes it shrinks the image and duplicates it either side by side or top/bottom style.

My previous setup was stolen, but it had a computer that in total cost less than my current graphics card and a 3D TV. My setup consisting of the video processor, moome card and G90 is a proven one as I am hardly the first to have this setup and it works just fine for others. It is basically an awesome 3D projector setup with a better picture than almost any of the current projectors being sold today. In other words, I don't think that setup is the problem. What it feels like is that my expensive GPU cannot play 3D content, even though it is advertised as being able to and it does do a test pattern.

Are there some settings that I am missing? How do I get this combination to act like a Blu-ray player and pass through a signal that a 3D display can understand?

**kal** · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:05 am Post subject:

Good. One step at a time! So the fact that you can get 3D now but not with your PowerDVD PC software would mean that it's something to do with PowerDVD. You may want to contact them too.

Kal

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject:

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

I bought a 3D capable Sony BDP at BB a couple years ago and it wasn't more than 300 dollars.

And then last year I found a newer model than that at the local electronics junkyard/salvage yard,
paid five whole bucks for it, and it works great.

No reason to have to spend 500 bucks or more for 3D.

Madmanaenewman · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Canada

Amazing...I finally got a 3D image. I still cannot view it and will pose my newest question shortly, but for the benefit of anyone reading this post with a similar setup and frustrations here are two things I have learned.

First, do not bother trying to enable stereoscopic 3D in the NVIDIA control panel. This seems to be something that only works with products specifically designed to work with the NVIDIA product...total waste of time and energy and it merely adds huge amounts of confusion to the mix. At the moment there are no 3d resolution settings available, NVidia shows 1080i as being native at 30 hz, and I have chosen 1080p at 60hz. The Radiance shows 1080p 60 in and the same out to the Moome/G90.

Secondly I had to play a side by side movie (using PowerDVD), manually tell it that my display is "3D-Ready HDTV (Checkerboard) and that the source was indeed side by side, and alas I finally get a 3D picture not only for side by side formats but for ISO files as well. I sometimes had to fool around a bit to get this working but persistence eventually paid off. None of the other settings worked. Who would have thought that the G90 is a checkerboard player, whatever that means.

The problem is that the 3DNOW glasses simply darken the image without actually separating the left from the right.

I am guessing that this is a sync issue and I note that there is a pot on the Moome to adjust the sync. You press 8 on the remote, a light turns on telling you it is ready to adjust the sync, and then you supposedly rotate the pot with a tiny screwdriver. I tried this but gave up when the pot wouldn't move with the force I was using and it felt like if I tried any harder I would break something.

So my question is simply am I on the right track here and if so do I risk breaking anything if I put more force on that pot? If I am on the wrong track, then what might I be missing?

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

See if there's a dot of glue holding the pot's adjuster in a specific position. If so, carefully peel the glue off and try again.

It should turn with a gentle twist from a screwdriver that is correctly sized to fit the screw. No torque required.

Also check to see if maybe there's a mechanical interference issue that keeps you from turning the adjuster.

You may have to slightly loosen the black screws that attach the card's front panel to its brackets.