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What are your plans for CRT and the near future?
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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cmjohnson wrote:
It's not a useless comparison because the focus of it was not on color balance or gamma tracking, but on SHARPNESS.

To get proper colour/greyscale tracking with CRT projectors you often have to do things like defocus blue, so again, comparing any two projectors when neither is set up optimally is pointless.

Kal

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't defocus blue. Not unless it's proven that I need to do it. Since I don't push for high light output on the screen, that hasn't yet been the case.
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ElTopo




Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1607



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I defocused Blue a little bit to push light output.
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have that option available to me if I want to use it. But I have found that I am very aware of even small blue halos around objects
on the screen, so I like to keep it sharp instead. I've never lacked for enough light output to suit my tastes anyway.

I do understand that some people want a brighter image so defocusing blue makes sense for them.
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12024
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't defocus blue, and don't otherwise compensate for it, then your colors are not right. Period. (Unless you run an incredibly dim or very small image, with very low contrast.) That's a pretty fundamental limitation of CRTs.

You may be hypersensitive to the blue halos, and that may bother you more than the "cold" colors & skintones you'd get without the blue defocus. That's fine. But your projector isn't producing the colors it should.

Gary whatsisface who got kicked off this forum was also hypersensitive to blue halos. He used an external video processor that let him control the output curve of each color. He significantly boosted the high end of the blue, to make up for the saturation of the blue phosphor. That let him get accurate colors/gamma without fuzzy blues. But in addition to the cost & hassle of the video processor, that's also going to burn through blue CRTs a lot faster, because you're driving it SO HARD to get enough light output from a sharply-focused spot. Blue defocus lets you get that light output without burning up the phosphor, at the cost of blue fuzz.

I'm actually a bit surprised that you watched the RS45 & 9500 side-by-side and didn't notice an objectionable difference. You said there was "a difference in color balance and gray scale" but it sounds like it didn't bother you.

The blue hump tends to make skin tones look cold and lifeless, but I don't think it's anywhere NEAR as noticeable as the difference between color-filtered and unfiltered CRTs. I hated the look of my 8500 when I first got it. I had been used to filtered projectors -- an XG852 and a color-filtered Dwin 700 -- and the 8500's picture looked totally drab and lifeless. Skin tones looked pasty. Then I got adapters & some filtered HD145s for my 8500, recalibrated, and wow! Now the colors are gorgeous.

So I couldn't stand the unfiltered 8500. If the blue-hump 9500 doesn't bother you, then good on ya, enjoy the sharpness.
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My color meter has gone missing. I can't currently do better than adjust color balance by eye, so that's that. Finding my meter or replacing it is on my to do list.

Of course I'll calibrate for proper color balance, and if I can't get it without defocusing blue a little, then I'll defocus blue a little,
but not more than enough required to achieve the target. But I don't push for a very bright image. If it can make me squint on bright scenes, I don't need any more brightness than that!

I've seen how bright a G90 can be, and usually they are set up to put out a lot of light, based on the ones I have, and no wonder
they have a reputation for eating tubes! I really don't even like it that bright. To heck with tube life, that's not even a concern to me as I have plenty of new condition spares. I even back down the iris on the RS45 just to keep it from getting brighter than I care for.

There is a color balance difference between the RS45 and the Marquee right now, but no, actually it doesn't bug me. It's not a major imbalance anyway. Not to my eye.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
If you don't defocus blue, and don't otherwise compensate for it, then your colors are not right. Period. (Unless you run an incredibly dim or very small image, with very low contrast.) That's a pretty fundamental limitation of CRTs.

Yup. It's not some models only, it's not a personal preference. It's something that all CRT owners have to do if they want correct colours like Gary mentioned. This is a not a new thing - it's as old as CRT itself. It's heavily covered in my ~10 year old GREYSCALE FOR DUMMIES GUIDE: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

I cover the CRT "blum hump" issues too.

Quote:
The blue hump tends to make skin tones look cold and lifeless, but I don't think it's anywhere NEAR as noticeable as the difference between color-filtered and unfiltered CRTs.

Agreed. after having tinted glycol in my first CRT projector I couldn't *not* go with tinted c-elements or glycol in future projectors. The colour just wouldn't track right.

Kal

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know about the blue hump. It's intrinsic to the light output curve of the blue phosphor itself, and that's why there are gamma
correction circuits on the blue amps only on some CRT projectors.

It's also why VDC in later firmware revisions added sub-brightness controls to the red and blue channels. (Firmware versions 6.0 and 6.1 for certain. Not sure about previous firmware.)

As for overall color balance, there are movies where the director made an artistic choice to mess with the color palette, some movies
have a blue push, some push red, others are biased toward green. (Matrix movies) If I haven't actually seen the movie before in a calibrated setting, I don't necessarily know what it should look like. Being freed of that knowledge, if it looks good to me with a certain bias toward one color or another, then at the end of the day it looks good to me and no sense worrying about it.

I do want, no, NEED, to calibrate my projectors. As soon as I find my meter....or replace it.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
If I haven't actually seen the movie before in a calibrated setting, I don't necessarily know what it should look like.

And that's exactly why we calibrate to a known standard. Because we don't know what the director intended. If you don't calibrate, you may not be seeing what the director intended.

Kal

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will calibrate it...when I relocate or replace my meter. Until then, I just have to eyeball it and accept what I get.
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racerxnet




Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
I know about the blue hump. It's intrinsic to the light output curve of the blue phosphor itself, and that's why there are gamma
correction circuits on the blue amps only on some CRT projectors.

It's also why VDC in later firmware revisions added sub-brightness controls to the red and blue channels. (Firmware versions 6.0 and 6.1 for certain. Not sure about previous firmware.)

As for overall color balance, there are movies where the director made an artistic choice to mess with the color palette, some movies
have a blue push, some push red, others are biased toward green. (Matrix movies) If I haven't actually seen the movie before in a calibrated setting, I don't necessarily know what it should look like. Being freed of that knowledge, if it looks good to me with a certain bias toward one color or another, then at the end of the day it looks good to me and no sense worrying about it.

I do want, no, NEED, to calibrate my projectors. As soon as I find my meter....or replace it.


Do you plan on calibrating to rec 601 and 709? If so, and considering your present video chain, how will you accommodate the color coordinates of each spec? Will the player convert accordingly? What gamma will you shoot for and white balance (D65) as well. Right now you are pi$$ing in the wind.

MAK
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D65 and rec. 709, with color corrected C elements in red and green. Gamma adjusted for best linearity, probably 2.2.

It'll be set up for HD as the default for all viewing, and I can set up another memory with a different calibration if I judge it necessary,
though I never have before.

I'm honestly far more interested in a sharp image than in getting the color balance precisely correct.
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racerxnet




Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good Chris. It's all about having fun.

MAK
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