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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: Who has a 4K player and a Moome HDMI card in his CRT PJ? |
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If you have a 4K (upscaling blu-ray or real UHD blu-ray) player and a Moome card in your CRT projector,
what is the highest selectable resolution you can choose in the player that can be displayed via the Moome card?
In theory, an HDMI 2.0 player should be able to connect to an HDMI 1.3 device and provide it with all the
resolutions and formats that are supported by the 1.3 spec, but obviously, nothing beyond that point.,
I'm asking because HDMI 1.3 supports up to 2560x1600 at 75 Hz refresh rates.
I've been looking to push beyond 1080p and it seems that this CAN be done with a Moome card and the
right player, up to (maybe) 2560x1600.
So, how high can you go and what model player are you using?
I've searched and found really almost zero documentation on the range of available output resolutions
that these various players have. The online documentation is simply not that detailed.
I'm asking this because this information will be used to help me choose what 4K (native or upscaling) player to get.
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gregstv
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 628 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I think you will need MP to sort out the bandwidth to accommodate this resolution.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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That's Part 2. First I need an answer to the question.
There ARE HDMI 1.3 resolutions above 1080p and I need to know if an upscaling or 4K player will make any of those resolutions
available to a Moome HDMI card. That's the question and the technical details to be addressed later will be addressed later.
Not only that, but there are HDMI 1.3 standard resolutions that are above 1080p and still come in below 300 MHz total bandwidth
so for those of us who already have high bandwidth modded equipment we can start enjoying higher definition rates right away.
In fact, the max resolution of 1.3, which is 2560x1600, still makes it under the 300 MHz video bandwidth limit at 60 Hz refresh.
I say 300 MHz bandwidth limit because so far that's about as far as anybody has pushed the video chain bandwidth to by any means.
There's lots of room to experiment between 1920x1080 and 2560x1600.
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racerxnet
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Illinois
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Why don't you just use a PC to confirm your bandwidth limitations. Seems easier with the required custom resolutions.
MAK
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Because I don't have an HDMI video card for my PC.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Syncing to higher BW (>200mhz) is certainly possible but the 1:1 resolving power will start to fall apart. Not sure how to measure the trade off between enhanced color bit depth of UHD and resolution loss associated with going above 200mhz for resolutions >1080p at 60hz. IMO, running something like 2400 x 1350 at 48hz is a waste of time because the flicker/judder will be terrible but perhaps this will be right up your alley. I ran some hgiher resolutions when I had Kurt's signal generator last year and that was before installing his vnb's with Mike's boards (I found that as the best combo). Would have been interesting to see how far we could have pushed that; although the linearity coming out of black would have likely nosedived.
This also depends on your tolerance for raster ringing in the image. I have my 03 VIM resolving 1080p/72 with perfect linearity and 1:1 SMPTE (well for a CRT) so it may be possible to to push to an H RES of say 2200 and have relatively minimal resolution loss but the trade off will be raster ringing.
To really figure this out; beside the UHD player you'd need a Lumagen 21xx or the PRO to be able to output a porch adjusted signal to 250mhz. Couple that with properly modded VIM/VNB and you could possibly find a 60hz resolution greater than 1920 x 1080p that would in theory have better color bit performance. It's going to require a good chunk of dough to do this right.
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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[pops pop-corn] sits on sofa and watches. (Can't wait to see what comes of this)
_________________ Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1608
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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4K only makes sense with two CRT projectors.
_________________ Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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This is only about trying it and seeing what it does. There are no great expectations.
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gregstv
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 628 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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On the OPPO you only have one choice with 4K. There are no other output settings for 4K.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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gregstv wrote: | On the OPPO you only have one choice with 4K. There are no other output settings for 4K. |
The 203 outputs the following (per Oppo site):
The UDP-203 features support for all current SD, HD, and UHD resolutions, including 4K@60p, 4K@50p, 4K@30p, and 4K@24p using various color spaces such as PC RGB, Video RGB, YCbCr 4:4:4, 4:2:2, and 4:2:0.
So the way I see this working is you set the Oppo-203 output at 4K@24/30/60 to the lumagen and then set your Lumagen at the desired downsampled resolution prior to going into the Moome. For example, you could output 4K/60 from UHD player and convert that to 2500 x 1600/60hz in Lumagen or try 4K/24 which could be converted to 2305 x 1296/72. I haven't done the math on the BW just making approximations from a theoretical perspective.
The big problem is the cost to try this experiment. Lumagen won't loan out a PRO so unless there's a PC based solution for custom res/timings that can handle the horsepower I'm not sure how else you could try this from a cost effective perspective.
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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You're WAY overcomplicating this.
In order to answer the question I am asking, the sum and total of equipment required is this:
A 4K BD player, whether it's upscaling or true 4K UHD.
A good HDMI cable.
A CRT projector with Moome HDMI 1.3 or greater card.
NOTHING ELSE. Well, power cords, a screen, and electrical power.
The objective is to answer these questions:
What resolutions beyond 1080P are actually supported by the Moome HDMI 1.3 card? The HDMI 1.3 spec allows up to 2560x1600 with a 75 Hz refresh rate. This is the maximum possible answer.
What output resolutions beyond 1080p and not greater than 2560x1600x75 are supported by the player(s) under consideration?
That is the sum and total of the scope of this inquiry. I do not care about what you can do with a PC and powerstrip or a Lumagen processor or any of that. That is entirely outside the scope of this inquiry and I am not at all interested in them for the purpose of this quest.
Giving answers outside the defined constraints of the question won't do me any good. I'm not running an HTPC, and I'm not using a Radiance scaler nor am I in the market for one.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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cmjohnson wrote: | You're WAY overcomplicating this.
In order to answer the question I am asking, the sum and total of equipment required is this:
A 4K BD player, whether it's upscaling or true 4K UHD.
A good HDMI cable.
A CRT projector with Moome HDMI 1.3 or greater card.
NOTHING ELSE. Well, power cords, a screen, and electrical power.
The objective is to answer these questions:
What resolutions beyond 1080P are actually supported by the Moome HDMI 1.3 card? The HDMI 1.3 spec allows up to 2560x1600 with a 75 Hz refresh rate. This is the maximum possible answer.
What output resolutions beyond 1080p and not greater than 2560x1600x75 are supported by the player(s) under consideration?
That is the sum and total of the scope of this inquiry. I do not care about what you can do with a PC and powerstrip or a Lumagen processor or any of that. That is entirely outside the scope of this inquiry and I am not at all interested in them for the purpose of this quest.
Giving answers outside the defined constraints of the question won't do me any good. I'm not running an HTPC, and I'm not using a Radiance scaler nor am I in the market for one. |
I'm not overcomplicating anything; rather you are failing to see the hardware requirements to do what you want to do. A 4K UHD player will not send custom resolutions. I gave you the resolutions in the post above directly from Oppo's site. Only way that happens is with an outboard processor.
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Oppo is not the only player. There are people who have Pioneer, Sony, Samsung, Denon, and other brands, or I could buy examples in those and other brands.
If you know that your Oppo player won't do that, then just say so. It becomes a data point.
So, move on to the next player. Who has a Sony, Pioneer, Samsung, Denon, whatever player that fits the experiment criteria?
Aside from what you linked, I've found really NO detailed specifications online that list the COMPLETE list of resolutions supported by any given player. You can't say that there isn't one that supports any or all "standard" resolutions in the HDMI 1.3 spec above 1080p.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Pioneer, Samsung, Sony and Denon don't have this feature in their current line up. Perhaps some other company does but I doubt it. There's really no market for such a feature so not really surprising.
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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hal
Joined: 28 Nov 2012 Posts: 100
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Chris, I think that as time goes on more options will be available. A inexpensive solution would be a TVONE unit post (inexpensive stripper box). This way you could output almost any resolution that you could come up with.
Disclaimer, I haven't tried it because I am like many am waiting on which 4K blu ray to buy. I think the Oppo and Panasonic are the top 2.. Again this is just my opinion.
Chris I have a TVONE, and I would send it to you on loan.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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jbmeyer13 wrote: | Pioneer, Samsung, Sony and Denon don't have this feature in their current line up. Perhaps some other company does but I doubt it. There's really no market for such a feature so not really surprising. |
+1.
Blu-ray players do not support custom resolutions as there is zero market for this. 99.99999% of people run TVs that do either 480p, 720p, or 1080p. Some now run 4K as well. A manufacturer supporting anything other than the standard resolutions makes absolutely no business sense. The scaling chips they use are all off-the-shelf too.
If you want custom resolutions, you need an HTPC as the source running something like PowerStrip (or whatever the HTPC'ers run today) or you need a 'regular' 4K Blu-ray player and a Radiance Pro to downrez to whatever resolution/refresh rate you want to do. You can order one here: www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
I also agree with this:
jbmeyer13 wrote: | Syncing to higher BW (>200mhz) is certainly possible but the 1:1 resolving power will start to fall apart. |
Just because some analog circuitry may go to 300Mhz (for example) doesn't mean you should be pushing it anywhere near that limit. It'll eventually turn into a smeared mess. Slew rates are important.
Kal
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Also look at it this way: HTPC is a solution for some people. with CRU we can generate any resolution we want to within the limits of the HDMI card.
So what are the real resolution capabilities and limits of the Moome HDMI 1.3 card, beyond 1080p? I don't have any documentation on that.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I did see that in that manual. But it doesn't answer the question that this information immediately poses:
Is that the true maximum capacity for this card? Or is it the maximum that it has been tested at? Has Moome written code in this
card that either enables or disables specific modes that are within the HDMI 1.3 specification?
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