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JVC buying advise CES 2017

 
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bachiano



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 157



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: JVC buying advise CES 2017 Reply with quote


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Hi Guys

Iím thinking of buying one of the JVCís that were just announce in CES 2017.
I wish I could afford the middle model RS 520 with 130,000:1 native CR, but reality dictates I cannot.
So that leaves the bottom model RS 420 with 40,000:1 native CR.

My question is.
Is 40,000:1 native CR good enough for someone coming from a CRT ?

Thanks
Bachiano
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will tell you this based on my own personal experience.

I have modded Marquee Ultras.
I have three running G90s, one with perfect tubes.
I have an RS45.

I stack the RS45 with an Ultra, but can't run them both at the same time with good results
because of the time delay in the projected images.

I have absolutely no objections to watching movies on the RS45 instead of the Marquee. They're so close
to being equal in most respects that it isn't even funny.

I do not expect that any CRT enthusiast would be displeased with even a model as old as the RS45. Any newer model
should make you quite happy. Though I hope there is still some life left in CRT, because I have several units I'd like to
sell to good homes, the point at which digital picture quality is really worthy of comparing to good CRT was reached a few
years ago and I have no reservations in saying that.


If you're looking for a good G90, though....you can always PM me.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I can give you some insight.

I went from a G70 to an RS45 in roughly 2011. I wasn't 100% sure I wanted to do it, but the B-stock RS45 was a great deal, and I was really sick of the noise of CRT. I like video AND audio, and the CRT projector was wrecking the audio. So, I ordered the RS45.

The RS45 was rated 50,000:1 on/off. It had no dynamic iris and no eShift. I had a 96x54 ~1.3-gain screen. The first thing I noticed was the brightness - in eco mode - was amazing. It just BLEW the CRT away. Even better, there was no brightness compression on high-APL scenes like with the CRT. It was awesome. It was so bright in fact, I set the aperture to the smallest setting and left it that way for at least the first 500-600 hours. It was literally more than a year before I noticed the brightness had dropped off and I had to open the aperture a little.

The black levels weren't quite as good as the CRT. However, it really wasn't distracting. I loved the CRT fade to black in Cars when Lightning is in the trailer in the dark - where you couldn't see you hand in front of your face. But, you have to crush blacks a little to get that level of performance. So, the JVC blacks weren't that good. If CRT blacks are a "0", and your typical Epson is a "3", then the JVC is a "1". Blacks were very low, and low enough it really isn't a concern unless that's just all you care about. Blacks got better as time went on and lamp brightness dropped off a little, and I could have easily gone with a a little larger screen - like 3m wide - and black levels would have been even better.

The only thing - and mean the only one thing - that really bothered me at all was that I could still occasionally see pixels in very small, fine details, like on end credits, or trying to read a license plate on a distant car. But, it was because I sat so close to my screen - about 10 feet from an 8-foot wide screen, and because I'm being hypercritical. eShift removes that concern altogether.

One more data point. When I moved, I took down my RS45, and put up an RS2 for the new owner. There was a clear difference in build quality between the two, but as for image quality, unless you saw them side by side, I don't think most people could tell the difference between them. It seems like 30k:1 vs 50k:1 would be a huge difference, but apparently it isn't. The RS2 was years older and "only" 30k:1, but the look of the picture wasn't *that* much different from the RS45, and to be honest, I would have been happy with even that over the G70.

I think with a 40k:1 contrast ratio, you'll be very happy. Dial in a couple of clicks of dynamic iris, and you'll be blown away. I wouldn't hesitate for a second. Going from a G70, you're in for a real treat.

If you do some searching, you can probably find some of my comments when I moved from G70 to my RS45, and Kal made a similar move with the RS56. The RS56 has a much higher contrast ratio, but the difference - visually speaking - isn't as big as the numbers would have you believe.

Cheers,
SC
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15709
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
If you do some searching, you can probably find some of my comments when I moved from G70 to my RS45, and Kal made a similar move with the RS56. The RS56 has a much higher contrast ratio, but the difference - visually speaking - isn't as big as the numbers would have you believe.

Exactly. I think contrast ratio is a logarithmic scale. Doubling doesn't mean the image is twice as "good". Once you get past a certain point CR matters less and less. Going from 5,000 to 10,000 is noticeable, 10,000 to 20,000 is less noticeable, and 20,000 to 40,000 even less.

Keep in mind that the higher the CR, the more your room needs to be light controlled. Unless you have completely black side walls, ceiling and floor, there's no point in a very high CR projector.

As a CRT owner going to JVC digital, I gave my thoughts here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32973

What CRT do you have now? How well is it set up / how are the tubes?

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15709
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI - for the others interested, the JVC press release is here:

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2017/ces/CES17_new_eshift4_projectors.html

Kal

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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ecrabb mentioned a subtle screen door effect. I see it, too. It's almost subliminal, right on the edge of vision, but it's there.
I find it to be slightly irritating. What I have done is to ever so slightly defocus the unit to minimize, and NEARLY eliminate the SDE. Not enough to actually completely eliminate it, but make it barely noticeable when seen up close.

That works well enough to smooth out the picture and get rid of that almost subliminal source of irritation.

People say visible pixels mean sharpness, I say it means "image artifact". Scan lines on a CRT are also an image artifact.

In any event, the picture is best when the lines or pixels just begin to merge.
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jbltecnicspro



Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 494



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Ecrabb mentioned a subtle screen door effect. I see it, too. It's almost subliminal, right on the edge of vision, but it's there.
I find it to be slightly irritating. What I have done is to ever so slightly defocus the unit to minimize, and NEARLY eliminate the SDE. Not enough to actually completely eliminate it, but make it barely noticeable when seen up close.

That works well enough to smooth out the picture and get rid of that almost subliminal source of irritation.

People say visible pixels mean sharpness, I say it means "image artifact". Scan lines on a CRT are also an image artifact.

In any event, the picture is best when the lines or pixels just begin to merge.


This may be a dumb comment, so please excuse the ignorance. But couldn't one just slightly defocus the lens of a digital so that the details are still there but the visible pixel structure isn't?
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's exactly what I did. I'm sure I'm not the only one to do it.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbltecnicspro wrote:
This may be a dumb comment, so please excuse the ignorance. But couldn't one just slightly defocus the lens of a digital so that the details are still there but the visible pixel structure isn't?

cmjohnson wrote:
That's exactly what I did. I'm sure I'm not the only one to do it.


Yes, you can defocus the image slightly, and that's what most people do.

I didn't mention "screen door" in my original post, because the fill rate is high enough on JVC projectors, and the pixels small enough, you really don't get the impression of "screen door". That term was coined back in the days of 480p projectors and it continued even with 720p projectors, because at normal screen sizes - especially with LCD and DLP - there was a significantly noticeable grid of vertical and horizontal lines.

With the advent of 1080p, better imager pixel density, and optical technologies that help, screen door as we once knew it is mostly gone. What is still noticeable - especially if you sit close to your screen (anything close to 1x screen width) and have pretty good vision - are pixels. It's not noticeable overall or obtrusive in anyway, but if you fixate on a static or slowly-moving object with fine detail in it, like scrolling end-credit text, or the numbers on a license plate, you can sometimes see pixels. If you know computer graphics, it's called "pixel aliasing". Even with a perfect 100% fill rate for zero grid (or lines between the pixels), if the resolution isn't high enough, you see the pixels. That's the problem with 1080p - it's just not enough resolution. UHD pretty much does the trick for all but the most ridiculous seating distance/viewing angle configs.

The good thing is eShift - especially the later implementations - completely eliminates the issue, even with a 1080p imager. eShift4 is now really, really good. It makes the picture slightly softer with 1080p content; it literally softens the image a touch, but it's perfect because it makes the picture more film-like, or oddly enough, more CRT-like. It has a more "organic" feel to it.

If you have a chance to see an eShift4 machine like a 4910, RS500, or one of these new machines, do it.

SC
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is unfortunate that no reasonable priced native 4K projectors are coming from JVC.
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I called it "screen door" because to me it's the same thing as screen door effect but it's far more subtle due to the greater fill factor and finer pixel pitch. It's still defined pixels with (very tiny) black areas around them. And I'm quite sensitive to it. Apparently.
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bachiano



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 157



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím comming from a G70 with 3k hours.
Well set up and in a bat cave.

Iím also tired of the noise and having to tweak once a year.
The last tweak I did from scratch and it took me three days doing it bit by bit .
Iím so over that Evil or Very Mad

Thank you all for your great comments.
I feel much reassured now.
Bachiano

BTW one reason I stuck with my CRT for so long and did not Jump on to JVC was due to their horrible lag times.
Now that these new JVCís have a game mode there is nothing preventing me from embracing the digital side Smile
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15709
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bachiano wrote:
Iím comming from a G70 with 3k hours.
Well set up and in a bat cave.

I think you'd be very happy with either of the new JVCs (bottom one or second bottom).

I went from a Zenith 1200 which is a Barco Cin8 8 Onyx clone, similar specs to your G70 with 8" LC lenses, but quieter than your G70.

It's funny, I bought my RS56 exactly 3 years ago this month and I'm still ecstatic about it, having put just under 5000 hours on it (I'm on the second bulb). I have zero interest in changing it or upgrading. The depth of image phenomenal and eshift really makes me completely forget this is not a CRT.

Quote:
BTW one reason I stuck with my CRT for so long and did not Jump on to JVC was due to their horrible lag times. Now that these new JVCís have a game mode there is nothing preventing me from embracing the digital side Smile

FWIW I've also spent hundreds of hours gaming on my RS56 which supposedly doesn't have really low lag times, and haven't really noticed any issues with lag. But maybe it's the types of games I play (currently hundreds of hours into Fallout 4 and before that played The Last of Us - both FPS but neither are maybe as 'twitchy' as some of the games out there (?)).

Kal

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bachiano



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 157



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal.

Getting excited now.

Guess I should post some pics, back here, when the deed is done Smile
Cheers to all and belated happy new year !
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