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E-shift in software?
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Simple: Downscale 4K to two interlaced, slightly offset 1080P channels. Offset by half a pixel and half a scan line interval.

Eshift isn't about making 4K look smoother with less "jaggies", it's about increasing effective resolution above and beyond 1080p but, apparently, not quite matching native 4K.

Bandwidth, if done as I describe it, is exactly equal to regular 1080p.

The eshift algorithm would also "pick out" the 4K details and convert them to picture information that would, depending on its
original location in the 4K signal, assign "comparable" detail to the appropriate shifted or non-shifted frames.,


It should, for the sharpest CRT projectors, yield a noticeable increase in apparent resolution capacity, though how much
I can't say until it's actually in test.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Btw I don't think this would yield much at 1080p, since there is not enough room between scanlines. But stepping back to 720P would be interesting, there the scanlines are very apparent on high end machines, so shifting them would make more sense, also it would result in a virtual 2560x1440 picture, that is not 4k but more than 1080p. I'll ask my friend (who wrote the script) what he thinks and if the script is usable here or he is willing to write one for this purpose.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Eshift isn't about making 4K look smoother with less "jaggies"

Correct. It's not about 4K incoming signals at all.

Eshift is about taking a 1080p signal and smoothing it out to have the edges or pixel density similar to a 4K signal, all within a system that only supports 1080p. To do this, it's 100% done mechanically as it can't be done in software since the video chain doesn't support 4K to begin with.

If you already support 4K coming in, that's not eshift required, just display the 4K signal.

But I get now what you're asking: Some way to feed a display limited to 1080p a 4K signal and have hopefully retain more info than just downscaling to 1080p. That's not eshift however - that's almost the opposite of JVC eshift - which is what confused me. That's some form of software downscaling with some way of hoping to not lose detail.

Kal

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cmjohnson



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the space between pixels on the JVC D-ILA units that support eshift is extremely small, in fact it's almost impossible to see screen door effect unless your face is inches from the screen, so eshift is NOT about filling the inter-pixel gaps.

Eshift has always been about simulating a 4K-like experience with a (slightly modified) 1080p display mechanism.

Doing it in software for CRT projectors as I've described it has the same goal. As for how well it works, the truth is that we will never know if nobody tries it. But I think it's worth SOME amount of effort to find out in the spirit of exploration.


It's my opinion that it's worth some effort to try it. The way I think I believe it can boost our effective resolution on the best CRT projectors. But without trying it we'll never know for sure.

I'm all for trying it.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Doing it in software for CRT projectors as I've described it has the same goal. As for how well it works, the truth is that we will never know if nobody tries it.

I dunno, but I'm with some of the others here but I don't see how it could possibly work going the opposite direction

Quote:
But I think it's worth SOME amount of effort to find out in the spirit of exploration.
It's my opinion that it's worth some effort to try it.
I'm all for trying it.

Easy for you to say. You've said you have no idea how to do it so you're all for someone else doing all the work? Wink

Kal

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cmjohnson



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, unless Lumagen wants to give me the source code for one of their processors and let me take a stab at it. Which would be like handing a typewriter to a monkey and expecting him to type out a great work of neoclassical literature.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By all means, email Jim and ask if you like. I'd suggest something figurative to show what you mean, similar to what this guy did to explain how eshift works:

http://alienryderflex.com/e-shift/

Pictures help people understand.

Kal

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cmjohnson



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on, Kal. Do you expect ANYBODY to even entertain for a moment the idea that Lumagen would release valuable IP containing trade secrets to some guy like ME for any reason?

Tis the season to be trolling, right?
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justin_f



Joined: 27 Nov 2010
Posts: 50
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this thread is not heading the direction i thought it would... i do think all replies should be considered constructive. unfortunately i think this project will have to come from hobbyists.

I have a few questions. do modern pc graphics cards do hdmi 2.0? the 4k processing can be done with the power of the graphics card gpu. can we not build a htpc capable of receiving hdr content via hdmi 2.0?

there are open source projects on sourceforge for scaling video in windows. patching in support for something like this could be entertained...

i like gjakys idea of 1440p. its within the projectors abilities...

these are just a couple of things i have rattling around in my head if we were to entertain the idea.

I am a hobbyist programmer. I will take a look at the source code for the scaler project i have in mind either way.


regards,

Justin.
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the answer to most of your questions is YES.

The technical question to be asked, though, regarding an HTPC implementation of CRT E-Shift, is, do you have the ability to
change the frame sync timing by half a pixel's worth in both horizontal and vertical?

If the answer is yes then beyond that point you'd need to find someone who could develop a video playback app that would incorporate the new e-shift routine. Which is probably not half as difficult as it would be to try to hack this into a Lumagen unit
without help from the Lumagen development team.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Come on, Kal. Do you expect ANYBODY to even entertain for a moment the idea that Lumagen would release valuable IP containing trade secrets to some guy like ME for any reason?

Tis the season to be trolling, right?

You misunderstood. The only people that can make the change is Jim's team as you know, so the only way for them to consider doing it is for you to ask them to do it. That's what I meant by "ask Jim". Aka, ask Jim to make the change. I figured that would have been obvious as we both now they'd never give you the code. Wink

If you do plan on asking, I'd still suggest something figurative to show what you mean to make it clear, similar to what this guy did to explain how eshift works:

http://alienryderflex.com/e-shift/

Pictures help people understand.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

justin_f wrote:
I have a few questions. do modern pc graphics cards do hdmi 2.0? the 4k processing can be done with the power of the graphics card gpu. can we not build a htpc capable of receiving hdr content via hdmi 2.0?

Cheapest newest video card that supports HDMI 2.0 is this one:

http://amzn.to/2iKTe33

I remember Clarence talking about it some months ago...

There are more expensive ones but they're pointless for this app given that you don't need the GPU horsepower (you're not gaming).

Kal

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xmob135lc



Joined: 15 Sep 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
(...)

Fortunately, I don't have to convince YOU to try something new. Just...somebody. It's obvious that your mind is closed to new ideas and the very idea of TRYING SOMETHING that hasn't been done before.

Quick, does JVC's eshift work if the projector is just barely out of focus enough that the defined pixel edges start to blend?

YES, IT DOES.

So if it works there then it WILL work on a projector that has adequate sharpness.
(...)



It works ,yeah, just forget about the resolution multiplication by integer, since you don't even want to have 4000x2000 pixels addressed, but 2x 2000x1000 , or, 2x 720p for 1440p , you re "just" 2-4 million addressed pixels short Laughing ,

then the overlap will deal with the rest , so expect something like a 0.x multiplier .

Not to mention that 'virtual resolution' weasel word, quixotism has really gotten out of hand recently.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xmob135lc wrote:


Not to mention that 'virtual resolution' weasel word, quixotism has really gotten out of hand recently.


Strong words from someone who wanted to build a 300x200 resolutio CRT projector with 1500Hz refresh rate and subpixel resolution... Wink

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xmob135lc



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
xmob135lc wrote:


Not to mention that 'virtual resolution' weasel word, quixotism has really gotten out of hand recently.


Strong words from someone who wanted to build a 300x200 resolutio CRT projector with 1500Hz refresh rate and subpixel resolution... Wink


FWIW I always talked upfront about 'The Cambridge autostereo display project (19891998)' who first built 512x384i >1000hz , and never talked about entering specification-race ,or some outnerding championship (or worse).

...Despite what your sneaky remark might suggest.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Response from Jim (prez of Lumagen):

Quote:
Chris:

CRT's can't do a full blown eShift.

You can potentially increase the horizontal resolution. For CRT's this is equivalent to eShift horizontally since the Gaussian response of the projector would be similar in effect to what you get with eShift. The issue is that this is limited by the maximum clock rate of the HDMI to analog converter. The Radiance Pro can output at 297 MHz and so you could output 4096 pixels, but I do not know of an HDMI to analog that could take this. All the ones I know about are spec'd at 165 MHz by the chip vendor but can often run at 188 MHz for 1080p72.

If you happen to have a HDMI to analog converter that can do this or more, you can set up a custom output in either a 214X unit or a Radiance Pro unit at the maximum it will take.

You can't do a vertical eShift other than running an interlaced output for rates that would be beyond the horizontal frequency limit for the CRT. Also, often CRTs do not perform all that well as you get near their maximum horizontal rate as the blanking time and retrace. This does overlap the pixels more, but can also create visible flicker. Also, the Pro can output 1080 interlaced, but I do not think we can output 2160 interlaced.

=====

If you happen to have a 4k source, and the Pro outputs it at 1080p for your CRT (or anything lower than 3840x2160), that is I think what could be called a "Software eShift." This is in the scaling any time you down res a source. So nothing to do to support your " Software eShift" request.

Cheers.

Jim Peterson



Kal

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cmjohnson



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The part I'm not getting is where he's saying that the vertical shift can't be done.

Well, convergence can move the raster vertically. In the case of a G90, it can do it by less than half a scan line width.

Phase can move it, too.

So I'm experiencing a disconnect between what he said and what many people have observed.

Yes, vertical raster timing can be adjusted and the raster shifted vertically.

BUT....this is a fair question...can it be shifted via an external source? Maybe that's the issue.


If something can't be done, that's fine. But I want to know what the obstacle is, in detail.
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xmob135lc



Joined: 15 Sep 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

High frequencies are eaten up. State of art spot size as far I know on CRT is 65 um on specialized small projection tube, then the phosphor powder's scattering turns that whatever small spot into gaussian blob.

Latter is also detrimental , but the way pixels don't have gaps between them is also detrimental , because the changes aren't clean cut, but time is spent transitioning between pixel values , that's effectively a low-pass filtering effect . So , not all "zero screendoor"-s are created equal.

Gaussian smoothing was useful in 90's , because the source resolution was low and could use smoothing effect, today is not really useful because computing power is cheap to recreate it.

Then transitioning time between pixels is interesting , obviously you don't really want that and wasn't a problem in 90's yet.

In the quest for high resolution , there are all kinds of walls , and have to be dealt with differently ,I know it's hard . Diagonal pixel shift is not a key to open a door on the wall , as far I know there is no door .
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cmjohnson



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually last night I was able to tweak and tune the central focus on my modded Ultra to such an extent that detail resolution fully equalled that of my JVC RS45 1080p native machine.

I'll say that again: Fully equal detail resolution. In A/B comparison there was no difference in the visual appearance and level of complexity shown with highly textured surfaces such as textiles, skin, and fur. (Monsters University BD is a reference for this.)

What I had issues with was uniformity of focus. Electronic edge focus on the Ultra is not working right and I've got to find out why,
no doubt it's due to those craptastic Thomson magnetics that have no business being on Matsushita type CRTs.


The point here is simply this: The E-shifted "quasi-4K" image is nothing but two streams of slightly shifted 1080p frames in 121212~~~ alternating sequence. The two frames derived from a single 4K frame are slightly different, and displayed on the screen
in a slightly different location, but at no point is the projector EVER being asked to display anything higher in resolution than a 1080p frame.

Having established that the CRT CAN in fact fully resolve 1080p, then it can be resolved REGARDLESS of whether or not it has moved a 20th of a millimeter down and to the right or not.

We are only asking this software e-shift to deliver 1080p at ALL TIMES. But half the frames are shifted in position very slightly and both frames are derived with slightly different details from the same source 4K frame.

Since we are never asking the projector or e-shift system to deliver more than 1080p, ever, then there is no reason why this will not work if the actual raster shifts can be done as required.

Your objections don't pass logical analysis. Because we're never asking the projector for more than 1080p.
Neither are we asking the E-shift enabled JVC unit for more than 1080p but nobody questions that THAT works.


If you were to tap into the circuits of the JVC unit in e-shift mode and separate out the shifted frames and the non-shifted frames, they could all be displayed on a Marquee or G90 or 909. What difference does it make if they're displayed slightly offset from each other? None at all.
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xmob135lc



Joined: 15 Sep 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Case I have to interject here on the one on one off patter and what it means to"fully " resolve that pattern.
Just being able to see the individual lines does not necessarily mean that it is fully resolved. For a proper fully resolved 1 on 1 off pattern the vertical and horizontal patterns need to have the same luminance. Or another way of looking at it is the same MTF between the vertical and horizontal patterns. If the MTF or each pattern do not equal the one that has a lower MTF or lower BW will look darker, which usually on a CRT Projector is the Vertical 1 on 1 off lines.

Here is a pic of a special 8500HR TSE set up doing
almost perfect 1 on 1 off



...not only that , the dark bands should have the same width as the bright ones, so , and that's where high frequencies went MIA.

And BTW, phosphor scattering is/has the most detrimental effect on that.


Last edited by xmob135lc on Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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