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MPMODS - my latest
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Down to my last mini boards that replace/bypass half of the SD5401 quad switches on the VIM. Thought about ordering more of them, but decided to let this be the last of them.

Got in a previously modified 50-3025-03 VIM last week and then went on to see how it fairs on my best neck boards, in comparison to the modified 02 VIM's. Though previously modified by me, it was still noisy on these particular neck boards. But noise aside, the image was sharper and also displayed the peaking or white clipping these boards are common for. So I started working on gain structure for better matching, that made for a great improvement. And from there did my 03 Mod upgrade that levels the noise floor and fixed the low end, or linearity problem. With all things now fixed with this 03 and a very different performance level overall, I'm thinking to do a few mini boards that have both switch and gain amplifier on it for my 02's. The fixed 03 VIM allows a near flat bandwidth performance, that is remarkably better than the modified 02 in every regard. Gain structure for proper matching was critical, because the AD834 gain amps are very difficult to get right for this purpose, or they would otherwise be notorious with hash noise and clipping. They have no respect for the 100IRE window in their present design.

The 03 I have now also has my previous mini board that had the three separate switch chips. I had upgraded from that chip version to a different switch and higher bandwidth integrated 3 channel switch chip a little over two years ago and is what I have on the last of my switch boards, so this is still a little lower in performance.

I'll fire up the PJ later and see how much of the change the camera can catch and will show when posted. On screen, I've reached my Apex.

All I can say for now is there is tremendous benefit and power in being able to do FLAT 1080P


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thewolfman




Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You never responded, whether my 03 was a candidate for these latest mods to. You think it is possible? Just asking though.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewolfman wrote:
You never responded, whether my 03 was a candidate for these latest mods to. You think it is possible? Just asking though.


Yeah, we talked about this. It would depend on if I'm able to remove the potting material in a particular area. I can say the best way is to try, and since that material is more of the soft kind opposed to what I'm using now, I just might make it happen.

Now this is only for the very latest, which is only a handful of them that were done, because of they would need to be matched to the neck boards.

The 03 as-is has a noise, low end and peaking or IRE problem. And most likely why the AD834 was not used in any other video chain. So it's strength and purpose for using was better bandwidth performance, when they also re-used it in the later 03 VIM's. However and beyond the higher cost, it had issues because it was very difficult to get right for video gain usage, even if using what's on the spec sheet for recommendations. The noise issue alone when used on the 03 VIM wipes out some of the low performance, and the other issues makes things even worse.

As it appears in its data sheet design, they were not clear on what the final section should be like, so the chip itself was not complete. You had to add the additional circuitry to complete the gain amp, and that required a ton of R&D to get things to work right for the particular video application.


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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
However and beyond the higher cost, it had issues because it was very difficult to get right for video gain usage, even if using what's on the spec sheet for recommendations. The noise issue alone when used on the 03 VIM wipes out some of the low performance, and the other issues makes things even worse.

As it appears in its data sheet design, they were not clear on what the final section should be like, so the chip itself was not complete. You had to add the additional circuitry to complete the gain amp, and that required a ton of R&D to get things to work right for the particular video application.


.


It has no real importance here but I never had issues so far with the AD834 designs when I followed the datasheet recommendations.
The current output of the AD834 has a purpose and it is well described in its datasheet, ie. high bandwidth is easier to reach when using current output.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
It has no real importance here but I never had issues so far with the AD834 designs when I followed the datasheet recommendations.
The current output of the AD834 has a purpose and it is well described in its datasheet, ie. high bandwidth is easier to reach when using current output.


If you're doing well with it that's good. It could have made for an excellent very high bandwidth gain chip for most CRT video chains, but only Electrohome's engineers used it in a video chain design. Barco 909 and Sony G90 both used the AD825, with Electrohome also going back to the AD835
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no doubt that the AD834 is not the easiest to use with those level shifters and with the precarious balance between its gain and bandwidth as the output opamp dictates. As I see not even the AD835 was the real bottleneck in performance with all those projectors. In fact the 500MHz bandwidth a little bit overkill even today, the UHD resolution has a pixel clock of 600 MHz, which translates to ~1.6ns pixel width and the AD834 is still usable there, while no CRT amplifier can come close to that.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
There is no doubt that the AD834 is not the easiest to use with those level shifters and with the precarious balance between its gain and bandwidth as the output opamp dictates. As I see not even the AD835 was the real bottleneck in performance with all those projectors. In fact the 500MHz bandwidth a little bit overkill even today, the UHD resolution has a pixel clock of 600 MHz, which translates to ~1.6ns pixel width and the AD834 is still usable there, while no CRT amplifier can come close to that.


All gain amps have their shortcomings, because of how they work to vary the gain and to do so respectfully. In that process they have an effect on the Video signal. With 0.7 PP being the perfect level, because 0 is black and 0.7 represents full gain, a lot can happen in the electronic process where they vary the gain. Noise, is just one of the negatives, yet the scope will still show perfect signal testing. The ability of these complex stages to also not attenuate the finer elements of the video signal are also important. But being able to do that correctly has also been a problem for high bandwidth analog stages, and that is why I started back looking at the gain amplifier.

I call it "going beyond the smpte" because a lot of attention was never really implemented in our CRT projector design for the real nature of the High Def signal integrity. They really never looked beyond the 1280X1024 resolution. 1080P really was the focus of Digital Technology, because none of the common gain amplifiers used in any of the manufactured CRT projectors were truly 1080 capable... keep in mind here, let's put the smpte aside and not use it as THE rule here.

On the other hand, there was the AD834, that had a phenomenal and TRUE Wide-band performance, and for that added performance a hefty cost point. That plus, just like a few of Analog Devices other claimed high bandwidth chips, the external components needed to gt it to where it's really supposed to work best, didn't really work out right in VIDEO STAGES.

The AD834 was supposed to have been the Apex of high bandwidth gain amps. But ended up barely being used anywhere, because of the other problems it created to get you to that usable performance level. That was of course, until I started really looking at it. It's main problem I've already solved, one of the two remaining, are testing well so far. And that last one will be under my foot before the month is out..Wink


No need for the incredible 500mhz capability, that extra flat bandwidth really means a better and less attenuated finer detail capability for 1080P. Once you get the final stage to behave itself, the noise level also improves tremendously. And that only leaves that one other issue, and that's going to be a done deal for sure.
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I call it "going beyond the smpte" because a lot of attention was never really implemented in our CRT projector design for the real nature of the High Def signal integrity. They really never looked beyond the 1280X1024 resolution.


With this statement you pretty much summed up why they did not care about the AD834.
Also the AD834 has much better specs (including distortion and precision) in every regard than the AD835, and it works as intended, but as with every high speed circuit the PCB design is an integral (and very important) part of the system, Electrohome engineers were not very thorough with that for some reason, and this was the source most of its problems.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good friend of mine is a highly accomplished RF design engineer. Years ago I showed him a Marquee and all the boards in it and asked about ways to improve its bandwidth, and the first thing he said after looking at the VIM and neck boards was, "At these frequencies the board layout is terrible. These boards were laid out by an audio engineer, when they should have been designed by an RF engineer."

I have no reason to doubt him.

I thus must wonder what might be gained by redesigning the neck boards (at least) using RF design principles, and of course,
salvaging the expensive/hard to find parts off of existing boards where it's smart to do so.

I'm thinking that a better way to build the neck boards would be to take a cue from the Sony G90 design. The actual neck board itself is minimalistic, with the video signals fed to it from separate amplifier boards in well shielded enclosures. Control signals come in from other circuits. This way, there is no reason to make the video amplifier circuit board do anything but handle the video signals. Let another separate board handle all other electron gun controls.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
Quote:
I call it "going beyond the smpte" because a lot of attention was never really implemented in our CRT projector design for the real nature of the High Def signal integrity. They really never looked beyond the 1280X1024 resolution.


With this statement you pretty much summed up why they did not care about the AD834.
Also the AD834 has much better specs (including distortion and precision) in every regard than the AD835, and it works as intended, but as with every high speed circuit the PCB design is an integral (and very important) part of the system, Electrohome engineers were not very thorough with that for some reason, and this was the source most of its problems.


I agree. It is a phenomenal chip with amazing specs. But besides a few engineers at Electrohome really wanting to take things to the next level, or even get back to the original design with the video chain, discrete neck board design using those expensive Motorola complimentary 500mhz RF grade Power Outputs, opposed to just popping in the Sanyo Modules, and the AD834's on the VIM, instead of the many integrated 1280X1024 Video Processor chips options that were on the shelf. They seem to have higher bandwidth in mind and on the table, but later ended up going to the AD835, which in specification comparison is a joke to the AD834. I do know the re-introduction of the 03 VIM from the original 50-2005-03P to the 50-2035-03P was an upgrade intent, but then the people in the cost department and the company wanting to shift attention towards Digital Design, opposed to spending more time on improving/enhancing the Marquee. They stuck with the 50-2035-02P with the commonly 02 VIM instead, because bandwidth was not market interest back then. Only a concern for the few who would want to take things to the next level.

There was some attention on the board design on the later 2035-03P VIM, that can be seen when you remove one of the chips. But really spending time to better the chips performance on the same board, they never got around that, and I'm sure they were aware of at least one of the problems getting this beast of of a chip to perform on that circuit design using those flaky switching IC's that's nearly impossible to impedance match.

Almost any High Bandwidth chip would need a lot of special attention, especially one that has this seemingly incredible flat bandwidth indication. Getting this chip to a comfortable overall operating level, while using the same PC board is/was a challenge. But when all things are reasonable, is when you discover an entirely different level of performance because so much happens when you attenuate the gain using analog technology. They seem to have done very well with the AD834 design, making a chip of that performance level more than 20 years ago, and even to this day, there's nothing out there it's equal or better.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
"At these frequencies the board layout is terrible. These boards were laid out by an audio engineer, when they should have been designed by an RF engineer."


I've also heard something like this. But think the usable frequency did not warrant the concern as much as some of the better components they used.

For instance the use of the discrete component layout with the expensive Motorola RF Transistors on the neck boards. This would have definitely required a better board design, and as we Gjaky and I have mentioned, that AD834 alone, should have required a special board design or consideration because of those above normal special solid stated devices.
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that begs the question: How much would it cost to completely redesign the board, PROPERLY for the MRF 548/549 power transistors with a designed 300 MHz bandwidth specfication (assuming the transistors will support it) and the AD834?

Just redesign the boards for that, and have the bare boards made. Parts and assembly cost NOT included.

Understand that this would also probably require a custom heatsink solution as well. Which costs...but that is a separate matter.

For this to work, any board made would be built with the power transistors salvaged from an existing neck card, so obviously
supplies would be limited. But at this point in the twilight days of CRT, I suspect the available supply exceeds likely demand.

I would certainly be willing to sacrifice good neck boards for the transistors if they were used to build BETTER neck boards.
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not an RF engineer but have read a lot of application notes on CRT amplifier design, plus a lot on general and high-freq. PCB design (this is also part of my job). I don't find the VNB PCB design that terrible, I mean if you follow the route where the current is flowing you find its way pretty compact and short, also they actually took care about minimizing parasitic capacitances quite well. Of course every design could be improved, but I don't think the yield would exceed the effort here.
There is a former Motorola Application note AN-1020 (now found under On Semi flag) where they presented a CRT amplifier design based on quite similar transistors to what was used for the VNB, and they ended up around 3ns rise time with that, and my findings on the VNB (with small modification) were actually even better than that, so I'd be surprised to see much better results out of the VNB, especially when maintaining the safety facilities of the board.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
I am not an RF engineer but have read a lot of application notes on CRT amplifier design, plus a lot on general and high-freq. PCB design (this is also part of my job). I don't find the VNB PCB design that terrible, I mean if you follow the route where the current is flowing you find its way pretty compact and short, also they actually took care about minimizing parasitic capacitances quite well. Of course every design could be improved, but I don't think the yield would exceed the effort here.
There is a former Motorola Application note AN-1020 (now found under On Semi flag) where they presented a CRT amplifier design based on quite similar transistors to what was used for the VNB, and they ended up around 3ns rise time with that, and my findings on the VNB (with small modification) were actually even better than that, so I'd be surprised to see much better results out of the VNB, especially when maintaining the safety facilities of the board.


I Agree, with the only section I found to make changes is the first stage Op-amp. There I had to do some board work to the input section of that IC with better grounding and such. Otherwise, I think they did well on the drivers and final sections.

In fact, I can get them up to a very stable 300mhz (pixel resolution) performance, that makes for a hotter running board and a little noisier, so with the benefits of the extra bandwidth capability that's really not usable, it's just best to stay where I have them now, where they perform better and operate cooler.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been working on an 03 VIM for awhile and really liking the difference I'm seeing in comparison to the 02, both modified of course. The 03 needing special attention to address it's few problem areas. My Green CRT is not only a mismatch, it turns out it's a VDC rebuild, because it has a blooming problem that can be seen in most of my shots. It just blurs out with any gain drive. Looks worse in comparison to the two LUG's.

The 03 is a very good Wideband video chain, once a good switch is used to replace that SD5401. But that better performance creates some image challenges that allows a good amount of noise to be present on the neck boards. The noise is near invisible in comparison to standard noise on screen. It's presence affects certain qualities of image. I've already mentioned this here on this thread and have also mentioned that I've solved the problem. With yesterday being able to take things even further.

Anyway, I'm moving from not doing any mods for awhile, to moving from doing mods to dealing with the handful of customers I already have and working from now on only what I already have out there. So no more MP mods, unless there's a fix or upgrade and that's only for present/previous sales. I have a few things to mail out next week and we'll immediately go into helping or supporting what I already have out there.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My marriage of my later version Moome card, where I separate the supply voltages to the DAC from being connected together. I do this by adding in some cases a second 3.3 voltage regulator to the already installed 3.3 regulator that supplied both Digital section of the DAC as well as the Analog section in the same chip. I also use conductors (recommended by the manufacturer)

A DAC chip as such would be considered a mixed signal device, and because of the high frequencies created from the clock (external) and the digital processing (switching), a high bandwidth DAC would also loaded with those same high frequency digital noises processing noises on it's analog output. Which also means it would become a part of the signal going through the video chain. That of course would not be good news for best image quality.

These noises do not show up on screen or can easily be seen on a scope, because of their high frequency relationship to the video signal. But will affect the image in low end performance and image clarity (fog). Will also affect image depth and transparency. The requirement for the DAC to have isolated supplies is also a FCC requirement to help keep digital noise (interference) from being transmitted on the analog cables and or any externally connected device. However, the Moome design in stock form this is not a problem. But for high bandwidth video chains, it is a must for absolute best performance.

Now getting back to the 03 and it's Wide-band and tremendous flat response at our usable rates. It is twice as likely to be a noise problem (which is already a problem in stock form) and to also amplify that noise into the neck boards. We'll presently working on bettering what we've already done so far. And we're doing that by using a very similar low-pass filtering installed on the VIM itself, as what's required on the output of the DAC. Meaning we've added a second stage filtering of high frequency crap to the video chain. Because once the Moome is attached to the VIM it becomes a part of the video chain, and that's why we've been looking at and hunting down noise with the Moome being a part of the video chain. Unlike in the past, the VIM was tested alone.

I'll post more on this later, but for now, I'm wrapping up a few loose ends on my work. And with the request for the mods being so far and few. Bringing Mod sales to an end, I'm still in the Mod Factory working things out. I guess at this point I'm fully an electronic hobbyist. Oh and I'm finally back in my main shop from a cramped small bedroom..Very Happy

A have a few other challenges in the Marquee chassis, that I will also wrap up. So far, the original Electrohome neck boards and as already has been confirmed by one of their ordinal engineers, all problems solved. And that is to include the VDC neck boards, all problems solved. And after my mini meet in August, I'll be firing up the G90 because I'm going to solve tht streaking problem, for I'm sure I know what it is now. In other words, I still have more work to do on the G90..Wink
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following applies only if you have the very latest of the Mods. It applies to the Moome card, that would be known as matching the very latest.

On these cards you'll need to get out your remote and select 4 (Auto detect) on the Moome making sure it's pointed at the card. And then go into your Blu Ray player settings and choose either YcbCr 4:4:4 or RGB only. Do not run using 4:2:2

You can determine what you prefer if noticed between 4:4:4 or RGB, or just go with 4:4:4 if not sure.

We have a few more changes that should be made, that we'll be posting later to this page.

.................


These Moome cards that are matched to the video chain, has two unique changes that were made to get the best out of the video chain. Both are further advancements for lower noise, as what would be highly necessary for the Wide Band Performance of the Neck boards, and especially if you have the matching 03 VIM. Because a lower noise front end is very important to get the best results out of a wide band video chain. Noise is the big hindrance a high bandwidth video chain, because it will also amplify the noise along with the signal. Removing or lowering the noise would make for better low end and tracking performance. The results of this is the ability to see finer detail in dark areas as well as, being able to even make out what cloth material looks like on a shirt or jacket.

.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used Avatar to better choose what colorspace setting worked better on my setup. Depending on what you choose, it will determine where the colorspace will be converted. If going 4:2:2 the conversion will be done in the Moome. 4:4:4/RGB makes it happen in the source. In my case it would be my Blu Ray player. so according to what I'm seeing on screen, my Blu Ray player is doing a better job converting the colorspace.

Avatar has always been a very difficult Blu Ray to show it's abundance of detail on any of my setups. But now I'm able to really get it to look better. The green foliage in the second shots looks amazing on screen, but the 2nd screenshot shows it not being as distinct. And this confirms what I've been saying about the cameras limtation. Or at least the limitation of this particular cheap camera.




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racerxnet




Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mod done to the Moome by you do not allow color space selection if I remember right. Can't confirm that right now.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

racerxnet wrote:
The mod done to the Moome by you do not allow color space selection if I remember right. Can't confirm that right now.


No, everything colorspace is separate and apart from anything I do to the Moome card. The selection or change of colorspace is as it shows in the manual.
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