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MPMODS - my latest
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: MPMODS - my latest Reply with quote


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I'll start a new thread here, that will also be a source to keep up with what if anything I'm doing now.

Over the years I've made various changes to the video chain to include other areas of the projector. My latest changes have been my absolute best. I will post some of my shots here from now on, but may still post elsewhere.

I have two different versions as of today. Both are using the 02 VIM. I also have an 03 (50-002035-03P) version in the works that I should be discussing soon.


New Changes:


1 - My 02 VIM mod has changed tremendously from what it was even some months ago. It now has zero peaking (high-frequency enhancement) and is 200mhz bandwidth ready. By being able to clean it up and perfectly match it to the NEW neck boards, and to do so without a need for any peaking, it now becomes a Super high-performance input/control board. Removing peaking greatly improves the overall image performance * (see below)

2 - My Neck Board Mods are also greatly improved. They are the key to the better performance I'm now able to get out of the VIM's. A lot of little changes has yielded tremendous end results


3 - After a bunch of work and solving the noise and bandwidth peaking problems, I'm now able to do the 03 VIM. And once done, it becomes a phenomenal performer. With a near flat bandwidth out to 250mhz. So it's coming up soon.


4 - The amazing results observed after my changes to the LVPS, has now been taking to another level. These changes are a must for best performance from the later version video chain Mods I'm now doing.



* HF peaking on HD signals distorts the signal quality - - - Any new Mod sales will make a contribution to the forum here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Changed BluRay Player-- taking with ambient light in the room

I'm working on getting a Green LUG to replace the Green LCP I have in there now. So for right now, I'll leave things the way they are until I swap out that tube. Then I'll dial things in better and get it all calibrated for a better picture.








Last edited by mp20748 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lowly Blu-Ray player




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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My best Blu-Ray player

Can't wait to get that Green LUG in this projector, because then I'd be able to increase detail by 2 or 3 times what I'm getting out of the Green LCP tube.







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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the previous post I mentioned being able to get 2 to 3 times better detail than what I'm getting with an LCP tube in my Marquee. So since being asked about this, I promised I would post on it here.

My Marquee came with LUG tubes. I damaged the green one when installing a neck board and the G2 pin bent away from the socket, and that caused a spot burn (very small). I later did something else that caused me to swap out the Green LCP from my test unit and put it in between the RED and BLUE LUG's in my main Marquee on the ceiling. So for the past months, I'd been running the projector with a Red and Blue LUG, with the Green being a LCP.

Well, the LUG's are tubes I'm very familiar with from field work on Barco 909's where almost every one of them had some form of tube wear, and that seem to be the case even with low hours on the tubes. So, that experience had be staying away from LUG tubes. That was the case with about three of my last Marquee's until I got this 9518 that I have on the ceiling right now that came with the LUG's. And since then, they have become my preference of tubes to have in my projector. And the main reason for not wanting them in the first place has all changed now, with me not ever wanting to go back to LCP's again.

But before I explain why I now prefer the LUG's over the LCP's. I would like to give a little history and theory on High-Resolution CRT's, and that is really what the LUG's are. While the LCP are apparently Low Resolution or maybe even considered a Standard CRT. I didn't like High-Resolution CRT's because the understanding on them has always been that they are not to be driving hard. Or should not be used for higher contrast levels. This may sound really strange because of their common known applications, but the theory is that in order for a CRT to properly render the resolution it was being used for, you should not blur the lines. In other words, you would have to crank the contrast to a gain level right before the image bleeds (distorts the pixel lines) the test pattern. High-Resolution CRT's have smaller projected beam size (spot). And guessing here, but that's probably why they would have phosphor wear on almost all of them. Not really sure, but I did not want a tube that I would have to keep replacing, in comparison to what the LCP offered.

After running these tubes for coming up on a year, I've noticed that when properly mated to the 1080P bandwidth, they produce a different image than the LCP tubes I'm more familiar with. I've also noticed that you really don't have to drive them harder, if the signal is clean enough. In fact, they seem to put out more of an image and do so even at lower gain settings. Whereas with an LCP setup, higher contrast is a must to get the image bright enough and to give it presence on the screen. It is very different with the LUG, because I prefer running the contrast lower, because the LUG is a different kind of CRT in that it produces a fully image. And having my Green LCP in between The RED and Blue LUG in my projector, has allowed me to find out how much more sharper and detailed of an image the tube projects. Unlike the LCP setup, the LUG setup keeps you in awe and keeps your eyes on the screen. So I no longer have to really bright setup, to now have a lower contrast drive level, with an amazingly detailed image that's really much fuller and punchier that shreer brightness is not really needed.
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes sense to me. Phosphor life is a matter of energy density per unit area per unit time, so if your beam diameter is such that you are getting a specific MTF with LCP tubes at a defined on-screen brightness level, but a LUG tube is also delivering the same brightness level with a higher MTF value, due to a narrower beam and narrower scan line, but it's being driven harder to get the same light output. So the phosphor under the scanned beam is getting hit with a higher energy density per unit area per unit time, thus causing faster wear.

The answer is ALWAYS to adjust for the point at which scan lines begin to touch. This may require slightly defocusing the tube electronically. What I recommend to achieve this is to use the CPC, focus, and astig adjustments to alter the shape of the electron beam so that the beam shape more closely approximates an I rather than an O.

Why? Because there's a secondary advantage to having a narrower but taller scanning beam and that is that it maximizes spatial resolution as seen horizontally. If the beam is razor thin, it's never going to smear fine details in the incoming signal, while
if the beam were, to exaggerate matters, a long oval many times wider than it is tall, it would blur image details.

When the beam shape is such that scan lines are beginning to merge, but only beginning to do that, then you have maximized light output and raster usage and at the same time also maximized the resolution potential of the tube.

It is nothing short of undesirable to have visible scan lines in your projected image. That scenario means you are not making effective use of the available phosphor area.

As such, while LUG tubes are sharper, we don't really want or need them to deliver sharper than our highest running resolution
(usually 1080p) actually demands. Doing that is counterproductive.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found that the LUG produces a more dense image. There's just more information in the image that makes it more appealing. And I don't really have to turn the contrast up to enjoy it. Not sure why, but on my screen, the picture is just there. Whereas with the LCP setups, I always had a need to crank the contrast up. I prefer to not turn the contrast too high because it wipes out the finer intrinsic detail in the image.

And again, High-Resolution tubes should not be used for high gain images, that is if your goal is Best Resolution performance. But these LUG's allow me the best of both worlds, and I'm amazed that I can get a really good (reasonably bright) and well-illuminated image and still maintain that finer detail I like..Very Happy


I like LCP's as well, but they are not the best for a more film-like (detail rich) image, where you can really see 2D as it should be revealed. The LCP does not produce the depth in the image that the LUG does so easily. So I would say the LUG should be best for those who would want a more film like experience.
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike-

Just a thought here; your PJ is performing better now than it ever has and all of the latest video chain modifications you've made have been in the last couple of months. During that time you've been running the green LCP so wouldn't it make more sense to install a new Green LUG before deciding definitely that it's the better option? The light output will undoubtably change once you swap in a Green LUG and that might change your opinion.

If it were me, I'd want to get some measurements of the light output with these different tube combinations to know exactly what is going on. If light output drops too much then it will effect the dynamics of the image so finding the right combination of light output and resolving power is a delicate balance.

I'm pretty sure Galen still has a Marquee he built with a Green LCP and Blue/Red LUG's and Frankenyokes from some years back. He was able to get really good results out of that combination but I'm not sure where he ended up with his calibration vs the all LCP frankenyoke machine.

_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries, I'm sending Mike a new green LUG in a few days. It's being potted up today, and then I build up the LC hardware kit and then it can ship.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea J. I had planned to do some of that already, but you present even more to help build a baseline for determining things. Can't wait.. Very Happy
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
No worries, I'm sending Mike a new green LUG in a few days. It's being potted up today, and then I build up the LC hardware kit and then it can ship.


Hey Chris,

Do you a meter that MP could borrow? Would be good for him to get some measurements prior to installing the Green LUG. Swapping tubes is a bit of a PITA so better for him to get ft lamberts prior to all of that work.

Obviously, seeing things on screen is the most important but having measurments helps because it provides that additional frame of reference. You can easily make a change that looks different but isn't necessarily better and having empirical data can help one to mentally process all of the variables in play.

From my own experience, when comparing MP's 02 and 03 VIM's we saved calibration settings for each and only during certain scene's was the difference apparent. Making notes of those experiences with data helped to provide context when making decisions. Your eyes can play tricks on you, especially when you spend hours or days tweaking stuff.

At this point in the juncture, we can be talking about subtle differences so every advantage should be utilized when attempting to form definitive opinions related to performance results.

_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an eye one
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbmeyer13 wrote:
Mike-

Just a thought here; your PJ is performing better now than it ever has and all of the latest video chain modifications you've made have been in the last couple of months. During that time you've been running the green LCP so wouldn't it make more sense to install a new Green LUG before deciding definitely that it's the better option? The light output will undoubtably change once you swap in a Green LUG and that might change your opinion


The later boards are very different from anything previously. Light output is VERY high with my present neck boards, or to put it another way, they can drive the tubes to better than stock light output. But that's still not how an LUG tube should be driven.

So it's not like I'm trying to achieve a 10 ftl output while also going for best resolution. That's really not possible with either LUG or LCP with 1920X1080P. That's not the state of 3 tube Projected CRT images. The proper means to adjust the light output is very different from what is conventional when High Resolution is the goal. The way it's really done is to use a test pattern, and maybe meter to determine the light output for documentation.


And if you notice from my screenshots, with my newer neck boards setup, the Red and Green LUG's are not the tubes that are blooming. On my setup the Green LCP blooms before the LUG's would, giving the exact same drive signal. Most likely why they used the LUG's in the G90 and 909.

So my above-mentioned point on this was not to get highest brightness point and have a bright image. It was to get the BEST light output while also being able to confirm I'm achieving on screen the required bandwidth performance.

Again, and this is the rule with High-Resolution Projector CRT's period, they are not for high lumens. If anyone has been to VDC and seen those special high-resolution CRT they have on their shelf, the first thing they will tell you is that they are not for high light output. The same principle applies to all projector CRT tubes. But the LUG's can also be used for high output, but they like any other CRT projector tubes cannot be used for both high output and high resolution. So my goal is finding the sweet spot where I can get the best of both and the LUG is perfect for that.

I'm thinking to provide instructions with the mods on how to use DVE to set the gain level for both light output and best resolution performance.


Quote:
If it were me, I'd want to get some measurements of the light output with these different tube combinations to know exactly what is going on. If light output drops too much then it will effect the dynamics of the image so finding the right combination of light output and resolving power is a delicate balance


This can easily be done using DVE - a light meter is not necessary when going after the proper balance because the right test pattern would be the best determiner to get there.


Quote:
I'm pretty sure Galen still has a Marquee he built with a Green LCP and Blue/Red LUG's and Frankenyokes from some years back. He was able to get really good results out of that combination but I'm not sure where he ended up with his calibration vs the all LCP frankenyoke machine.


The reason why most commercial setups used 1280X1024 was to be at a safe bandwidth rating for both the video stage and for best light output. 1920X1080P is an entirely different challenge.
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So it's not like I'm trying to achieve a 10 ftl output while also going for best resolution. That's really not possible with either LUG or LCP with 1920X1080P. That's not the state of 3 tube Projected CRT images. The proper means to adjust the light output is very different from what is conventional when High Resolution is the goal. The way it's really done is to use a test pattern, and maybe meter to determine the light output for documentation
.

Quote:

So my above-mentioned point on this was not to get highest brightness point and have a bright image. It was to get the BEST light output while also being able to confirm I'm achieving on screen the required bandwidth performance.


This is precisely why I said there's a delicate balance between maximizing light output and resolving power. One of the prime advantages of your mods over the years has been the ability to drive the tubes to a higher level of light output without sacraficing resolving power. The ability to crank the contrast without blooming has always been important to the image dynamics and one of the characteristics necessary for optimal film presentation in a Home Theater. If you are not trying for both 10 ftl and best resolution (as resolution is more your preference) then I gather you are winding up with an image under 10ftl and the reason I'd like to know the measured light output is because your preference in this regard may be very different than mine. If your getting something like 7 ftl with the LUG's then this wouldn't work for me. Installing LUG's is a huge investment of time and money and before going down that path I'd want to know that I'm going to be happy with the end result.

Quote:
The reason why most commercial setups used 1280X1024 was to be at a safe bandwidth rating for both the video stage and for best light output. 1920X1080P is an entirely different challenge.


Galen's PJ was for home theater and he was running 1920 x 1080p. I mentioned his tube set up because it mirrors your current one.

_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbmeyer13 wrote:
Quote:
So it's not like I'm trying to achieve a 10 ftl output while also going for best resolution. That's really not possible with either LUG or LCP with 1920X1080P. That's not the state of 3 tube Projected CRT images. The proper means to adjust the light output is very different from what is conventional when High Resolution is the goal. The way it's really done is to use a test pattern, and maybe meter to determine the light output for documentation
.

Quote:

So my above-mentioned point on this was not to get highest brightness point and have a bright image. It was to get the BEST light output while also being able to confirm I'm achieving on screen the required bandwidth performance.


This is precisely why I said there's a delicate balance between maximizing light output and resolving power. One of the prime advantages of your mods over the years has been the ability to drive the tubes to a higher level of light output without sacraficing resolving power. The ability to crank the contrast without blooming has always been important to the image dynamics and one of the characteristics necessary for optimal film presentation in a Home Theater. If you are not trying for both 10 ftl and best resolution (as resolution is more your preference) then I gather you are winding up with an image under 10ftl and the reason I'd like to know the measured light output is because your preference in this regard may be very different than mine. If your getting something like 7 ftl with the LUG's then this wouldn't work for me. Installing LUG's is a huge investment of time and money and before going down that path I'd want to know that I'm going to be happy with the end result.

Quote:
The reason why most commercial setups used 1280X1024 was to be at a safe bandwidth rating for both the video stage and for best light output. 1920X1080P is an entirely different challenge.


Galen's PJ was for home theater and he was running 1920 x 1080p. I mentioned his tube set up because it mirrors your current one.



7ft looks very different with LUG's because LUG's produce a different image when they get a clean and tight higher resolution. The image is just more fully opposed to what we're more familiar with. That's why I told you would have to see it to understand what I've been talking about.

Also, you don't have to run your setup at 7ftl to get the image you want. The LUG's would still be brighter and even tighter than LCP's. And would still look better than LCP's, but the resolution would exactly pass the test pattern test. But most won't even notice it.

Yes Galen was using 1920X1080P, much like we all were back then. But it's only in the past two years that were able to get True 1920X1080P to the CRT's. I've been saying for awhile, that even when the screen is showing a 100% resolved SMPTE pattern, that would not mean the setup is capable of Properly resolving 1920X1080P. For instance, I could display a perfect SMPTE pattern on my setup, but things would not be right concerning proper display of the signal. There is another level of testing beyond that. And when that level is considered, is when you're able to display an image that is fuller. Meaning it shows equal focus through-out the image (everything in the image has the same clairty as anything in the foreground). The image would also have the ability to reveal depth (2D) and look like a photo apposed to a screenshot.

If you saw my setup, you would want LUG's. And my image is usally between 6 and 7ftl. And I can still crank things up to 10 or even more if need be and it would be still very sharp. It just won't be able to pass the test pattern test for proper resolution. That is what I would be doing for special ocassions and some sports events, because it's then that I'll not be concerned with resolution as much.
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
I've been saying for awhile, that even when the screen is showing a 100% resolved SMPTE pattern, that would not mean the setup is capable of Properly resolving 1920X1080P. For instance, I could display a perfect SMPTE pattern on my setup, but things would not be right concerning proper display of the signal. There is another level of testing beyond that. And when that level is considered, is when you're able to display an image that is fuller. Meaning it shows equal focus through-out the image (everything in the image has the same clairty as anything in the foreground). The image would also have the ability to reveal depth (2D) and look like a photo apposed to a screenshot.


Hey Mike,

Can you elaborate on what that testing is as I don't think we've ever talked about it? What patterns you are using, measurments, etc.

_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I get a chance I'll post something. It's a lot you can use, even the smpte pattern, but a smpte nylquist with a black background would be best.

The goal is to adjust the contrast until the vertical pixel lines bleed or bloom right before touching. If the lines touch, you're not properly resolving the image.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contrast up to where I like it, and still I'm getting good detail. Whereas I would usually have to decrease the contrast to capture the best detail. The shots may not show it, but this is plenty bright for me. And again, the LUG just produces a denser (fuller) and punchier image,

These are using my best neck boards and a very special VIM I just completed this morning.










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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135



PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you've finally dialed in the magnetics on all 3 tubes, optical focus and changed the glycol? What about the BD player- are you running a decent model?
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I touched up on the focus some time ago, right after changing the glycol on the green only. I'll replace the glycol in the red and blue tubes when I replace the Green CRT.

I'm using my best Blu Ray player for these shots. It's a Panasonic
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gregstv




Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 628
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a OPPO player Mike. It will make your mods stand out even more.
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