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Good used/entry-level digital?
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Last night I watched Pacific Rim using both the RS40 and the Marquee Ultra. This movie makes great use of darkness and it's a challenge for a CRT projector. I did find some scenes with crushed blacks, but they were REALLY crushed, no amount of adjustment could reveal any detail so I'll attribute that to questionable video mastering.

What I found, in general terms, is that the image qualities evened out pretty well. I could not say that either projector delivered an image that was that much better than the other. Color balance was well matched, contrast as well, black levels were about the same, but there was a defined pixel sharpness to the JVC that of course the CRT lacks. However, looking beyond PIXEL sharpness, effective detail in the image was the same or if not exactly so, only the known focus issues with the Marquee that I have yet to solve would be to blame for that.

I found that I still marginally preferred the CRT image quality simply because it felt less digital, more like film. But it's pretty close, and I continue to state that I don't think any CRT enthusiast would find the image quality of the JVC unit to be lacking.

I am not regretting having the choice of these projectors. My intent for having both hung at once is that I will use the JVC for HDTV and the Marquee only for movies. I've never wanted to put hours on expensive tubes for "mere ordinary" broadcast TV.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16032
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind too that the digital image quality would only get better if it was installed properly. Unless you've changed something you have the following issues with your digital:

(1) Installed much closer to the screen than it should be. This reduces the contrast ratio. You'd get a much better contrast ratio and even some sharpness by moving the projector twice as far back.

(2) Incorrect setup of brightness and contrast. Unless you're back to using 0/0 for brightness/contrast and using "standard" 16-235 out of the Blu-ray player (usually the default) you will be clipping or crushing black/white.

(3) Reduction of resolution: If you do not have keystone set to zero, you are losing a bunch of resolution.

Just things to keep in mind as you do comparisons as I'm sure you've completely optimized your CRT projector.

Kal

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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keystone is at zero, brightness and contrast are at zero, unit was recently calibrated and those settings have not changed.

Nothing I can do to increase throw distance in this room, no point in mentioning it again.
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Jeremy112



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ Put a hole in the wall and put the PJ behind the wall Razz (Probably not possible or desirable, but still an option Razz )
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16032
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Keystone is at zero, brightness and contrast are at zero, unit was recently calibrated and those settings have not changed.

Good stuff!

Quote:
Nothing I can do to increase throw distance in this room, no point in mentioning it again.

I couldn't disagree more. It's very important that you mention context like this when doing comparisons because it directly affects the results you're seeing. In this case it affects contrast ratio, and contrast ratio is ESPECIALLY important in this case given that that's what people are used to seeing done really well with CRT. It was certainly a big concern for me when I went digital and why I maximized it by installing as far back as possible.

Whenever doing A/B comparison reviews between two products the two products should be used correctly and set up correctly in order to maximize performance. If anything CAN'T be optimized the person reviewing really should point out those issues. You could add context by saying something like "Contrast ratio between the two is similar but it's important to point out that while the CRT projector is installed at the optimal throw to maximize phosphor usage, the digital is not as I don't have the throw for it: It is installed closer than ideal to the screen which reduces the contrast ratio. Had it installed it twice as far back, contrast ratio on the digital would be even better".

If you had your CRT projector installed too far back using the less phosphor than is optimal it would affect image quality so you can certainly understand how that should be mentioned. So anything sub-optimal needs to be pointed out otherwise the results of comparisons are meaningless. You're doing everyone a disservice if you make detailed comparisons without providing important shortcomings/context.

Glad to hear you're finding them very similar.

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16032
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeremy112 wrote:
^^ Put a hole in the wall and put the PJ behind the wall Razz (Probably not possible or desirable, but still an option Razz )

I've seen quite a few digital owners do this. Just a simple hole in drywall with some mitered trim around it. No need for any glass. The hole is pretty small too if the projector's close. Bonus is that if the projector's noisy at all, it helps reduce that as well.

Kal

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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my G90s has too small pattern wear on it because it was set up too far from the screen. So I'll retube it.
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jbltecnicspro



Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 504



PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How far should one set it up? Far enough to expand the raster until it's a few millimeters out from the edge? That's how I set my G70 up.
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to CRT projectors, there are different schools of thought on that.

One is, use all the CRT phosphor area you can. Because that gives you more available light output and greater available total resolution capacity, or longer tube life for a given level of light output.

The other is to run a slightly smaller raster so as to avoid the image getting near the optical edges of the lenses, where focus performance and contrast uniformity begin to suffer. Ken Whitcomb, Legendary Calibrator, prefers this approach.

I guess I'm kind on the middle between those two. I will settle for a SLIGHT loss of corner sharpness and I don't like to waste
available tube phosphor area.
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hansilili



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 302
Location: Köln, Germany


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@kal increasing throw distance should have the same effect on conttast as using the iris, right? In my opinion it reduces both max and min light output and to me, depending on the picture content, it also reduces the perception of ansi contrast.

The X30 produces a brighter image than any CRT I've seen so far so I would optimize it for light output. If you want blckest black level, stick with the CRT.

Hope you all know the color temperature settings in the HIDDEN menu of the X30? Up, down, right, left, enter? It allows to adjust color temperaturs by reducing green/red/blue just like the advanced settings in the user menu. If you have calibration equipment (which you should) then max out one of these scales and calibrate the white point only on one of those. More light without loosing black level. Very Happy

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16032
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know the physics behind the general rules that all digital projector owners follow. Keep in mind that the general rules I've stated are well known and understood "Digital Projector 101" type things that have been in the know for the last ~20 years and are talked ad-nauseam over at AVSforum.com. Whenever someone starts to research proper setup of digital projectors, the first rules they learn are:

(1) Longer throw = higher contrast ratio, higher sharpness, lower light output
(2) Shorter throw = lower contrast ratio, lower sharpness, higher light output

As for why this is what happens exactly in terms of physics and the science of light, I don't know, I don't question it given that it's been well documented/explained a thousand times over. You can search over at AVSforum.com for detailed explanations I'm sure. It's also not specific to digital projectors: It's phenomenons that are well know and understood about optics for hundreds of years, used by photographers too. SC talked about it a bit earlier in this thread: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=465054#465054

These are not things I've decided on my own or noticed and am bringing up for the first time. It's basic principles type stuff.

When I set up my digital projector I did what most people recommend doing: Install the projector as far back as you can to maximize contrast ratio while ensuring that the light output remains high enough for your use. I my case I wanted to be able to achieve 14 fl/L of light output throughout the lift of the bulb. I ended up at just under 18' throw from a 54x96" screen of ~1.1 gain. I'm able to run mine in low lamp mode (absolutely silent) for most of the 2900 hour lamp life. More details: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32973

Kal

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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer to that phenomenon lies in an understanding of how a zoom lens works.

Obviously with any lens, and I mean a camera lens for illustrative purposes, the lens creates an image of what you are looking at on the device that is capturing the image. (Film, CCD, or CMOS sensor)

If you are using a zoom lens, interesting things happen as you move the zoom setting.

The more zoom you use, to look at a distant object. or, in the case of a projector, the longer the throw distance,
the LARGER the image of the viewed object will appear on the image plane within the camera or projector.

The image circle gets bigger at longer zoon. The image gets bigger inside the camera at longer zoom. The camera sensor,
being of fixed size, is looking at a smaller portion of the image.


But that's unique to zoom lenses. Fixed focal length lenses are designed to deliver the same image size to the film or sensor,
no matter what the focal length of the lens is.

That's the difference. With a zoom lens, inside the projector, as you alter the zoom setting you are changing the effective area that the lens has to pick up the image. If the lens is seeing a larger area in the projector's optics, it's gathering more light. Including more stray light that is reflected and diffused around the optical system, which reduces contrast. So in wide angle mode you would expect less contrast but more light. In long zoom you would expect more contrast but less light.

Just as you're describing it.

One of the things that makes this happen is the simple fact that not all the usable image-generating light from the optics makes it into the lens in any situation. You can get an image of everything on the display device with a very tiny lens, or you can get an image of everything on the display device with a very large diameter lens. Of course you will gather much more light with the larger lens. So you get a brighter picture.

In a zoom lens, the effective diameter of the lens changes with the zoom setting. That's just how a zoom lens works.
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's been a number of days and a number of movies watched, going back and forth between the RS45 and the slightly modded Marquee Ultra.

Although I'm still having trouble achieving uniformity of focus across the screen on the Marquee, actually I think I've got a focus yoke that has uniformity issues, the central area of the screen is truly as sharp as I've ever seen out of any CRT projector yet.

In terms of real detail sharpness, I'm seeing the same thing on both projectors. The Marquee is as sharp as the RS45 but without, obviously, any screen door effect at any level. If the RS45 had truly zero gap between pixels there would simply be no difference in visible detail. Using Monsters University as a reference for various skin, clothing, and hair textures, all fine detail stuff, I'm not seeing any difference.

But what I am seeing is something that's hard to put my finger on. I guess you might say there's a depth and solidity to the CRT image that is just not matched with the RS45. Color calibration is as close as I've yet been able to get it so the two projectors
measure about the same, but there's just more punch to the CRT image.

What I think is happening is that I'm unconsciously aware of the small amount of screen door effect that's present in the JVC's image. It's visible for a few feet from the screen, and though I'm sitting farther back than that, I think that the SDE is hovering
on the edge of visibility and it's affecting my impression of the image.

To be totally fair about it, I'm having to fight very hard to get the Marquee's sharpness across the whole screen to be as sharp as the JVC delivers simply by focusing the lens. The same result may be achievable, but getting it is a lot more work. I've got to juggle focus coil position, CPC rings, magnetic focus, and electronic astig and may be dealing with weak or faulty focus coils
and tired focus modules that are due for overhaul or replacement. I can understand how some people went digital from CRT,
even if the image wasn't better it's a whole lot less work.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16032
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How are you liking the increased ANSI (inter-scene) contrast ratio of the RS45? That's something I noticed right away from when I went from an LC CTR projector to my JVC RS56. CRT projectors really suck at ANSI, even with LC.

If you find the screen door on the RS45 bothersome, next time get a JVC with e-shift.

... and I know you're sick of hearing it, but if you want more depth to the RS45 image, installing it farther back would give you more (I know you can't). Wink It'll give you higher contrast ratio which most people find is more depth/punch.

Kal

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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly if I had to make an assessment based only on looks alone, I'd say that I'm not seeing much of a difference in inter-scene contrast. I will say that the CRTs put out an image that has a solidity and punch to it that the JVC doesn't quite manage to equal. Again, it's close, but the Ultra's image is just a bit more REAL.

I'm about to set up two screens in my garage for side-by-side projector tests, and I will be able to put the JVC on a cart in there and be able to run it at a longer throw distance. That's one thing I do want to do. See how that changes the picture, so to speak.

I didn't get an e-shift capable machine for the simple reason that it's out of my budget right now. I got a good deal from a friend on the RS45 and he's allowing me to make payments on it. Even then it's a stretch considering the erratic nature of my current means of income.
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so I have either a bad focus yoke or a tube that won't focus right on the edges. Very interesting.

I'll swap out the focus yoke and see what happens next.
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having watched still more movies and alternating between projectors, and now that includes alternating with a G90, I have to say that the single most remarkable thing about the RS45 vs. CRT is how its Clear Motion Drive feature completely changes the feel of motion in the image. How to say this? It's very smooth, and yet it feels both natural and rather fake at the same time!

It's motion interpolation, and some people say it looks fake. Well, in this case it does, kid of, but it also does a lot to give motion
a smoother look and feel to it, and I can't say that I really object to it. It's just something different to get used to.

Overall sharpness makes it very easy for scenes to transition into a 3D-like effect, and the clear motion drive helps this a lot.

I can't honestly say that I've yet seen a CRT projector exactly match that. But it does seem to be highly dependent on the sharpness of the CRT image. Great sharpness is required to get the 3D effect with 2D material. I know I have an issue with the Marquee that seriously affects ultimate sharpness, and I have to take it down to fix it, but the G90 suffers from no such problems
and is very sharp and the 3D effect is pretty strong as a result of it.
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I HATE, HATE, HATE Clear Motion Drive.

That is all.

SC
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far I've, to be honest, only been watching CGI movies with the RS45. I know what CMD looks like there, and in a CGI movie, it fits. I need to watch a few live action movies and see how it works on them.

I guess I need to drag out my Lumagen and set its output to 1080p-72 to see how that might help to smooth out motion artifacts on the Ultra. So far I've been going direct from BD player to Moome HDMI input.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16032
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
I HATE, HATE, HATE Clear Motion Drive.

That is all.

I've used it for nature documentaries like BBC's planet earth stuff. It actually works well there and gives you a sense of 'presense' like you're there. I'd also use it for sports, but that's mostly 30 fps content.

Generally speaking if content is 24fps, I'd never want to use it either.

@Chris: I know you think that everything should be recorded at 60 fps these days and that 24 fps should die, so let's not get into that argument again. Anyone that wants to can start reading about here onwards: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=461345#461345

Wink

Kal

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