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Moome card with HDMI 2.0 and HDR possible ?
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ElTopo




Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Moome card with HDMI 2.0 and HDR possible ? Reply with quote


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@Moome: May this be possible ?


cheers
ElTopo

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tagged. Yes, I'm really interested in this.

I'm on a quest to push a Marquee into 4K capable territory. Specifics are outlined in the CRT forum on more than one topic.

In short, yes, 4K capable tubes exist. LUGs may even be able to do it. (Reference the specs for the Barco Cine 9.) Bandwidth capacity needed is achievable. But I need to be able to get UHD resolutions out of the Moome HDMI card or it's all for naught.

Pleasepleaseplease make a Marquee HDMI 2.0 card that will output UHD resolutions up to 4K. I'll make a deposit on one NOW.
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ElTopo




Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only for Marquees there are also Barco users out there Thumbs Up
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. All the "top gun" machines are capable of better than 1080p. They should all be able to benefit from an input card that allows the possibility of higher than 1080p resolution.

A Cine 9 uses the same tubes as a LUG-equipped Marquee, and doesn't the G90 also use LUGs? We know the Cine 9's rated resolution approaches 4K requirements. So it stands to reason that any PJ using LUGs should be able to match that, although some modifications may be required to get there. (Run Barco yokes in the Marquee, for one.)

My suggestion would be for Moome to develop a 4K core input board that is built as a daughter board on projector-specific adapters that would have a low cost of manufacture. You buy the core board and the adapter board you need for your specific model of projector. This should be able to reduce the total cost of the boards. Also it makes it possible to adapt the board to other projectors at greatly reduced cost as you'd only have to make the adapter. The core decoder board would always be the same,
and built with a port to allow easy firmware upgrades. (I'd suggest via USB, just attach a USB with new firmware to it, power it on, and let it automatically load the update.)
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moome




Joined: 01 Jun 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, I plan make HDMI2.0 card, but it is early stage now~~
will update if any progress~~
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome! Looking forward to it!

Feature request: Remote-selectable output resolutions, so that if 4K is too much, but the machine will do better than 2K, then the user will be able to pick resolutions between 2 and 4K.
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greg9518lc




Joined: 19 Apr 2016
Posts: 360



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moome wrote:
yes, I plan make HDMI2.0 card, but it is early stage now~~
will update if any progress~~


How is the progress on this I am in for one of these if there is a preorder Thumbs Up

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Feature request: Remote-selectable output resolutions, so that if 4K is too much, but the machine will do better than 2K, then the user will be able to pick resolutions between 2 and 4K.

Why?

I'd recommend not doing this at all and keep it simple, just like Moome's HDMI cards today where you choose the resolution at the source. You'd be able to choose 1080p or 4K (if available).

No different than how Moome's cards work today.

You're asking for a scaler to be included which greatly increases cost and complexity. I don't see the benefit.

If you want to go nuts and upscale 1080p to 4K, I'd recommend a 4K Radiance: www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
It comes with a ton of other things that will be useful too such as multi-point greyscale and gamma adjustment, a full CMS, etc, and you take it with you if ever you change your projector. Building all that into a card that is meant for a single brand/type of projector (IMHO) doesn't make sense.

My 2 cents.

Kal

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates? It'd be nice to know if this product will actually be made.

I'm saving up money for it in any event. No reason NOT to save money anyway, right?
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5599
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wouldn't make sense to do this, when CRT technology would never be able to handle 4K in either scan or bandwidth requirements.

CRT would better benefit when 4K is done right in scaling down the resolution to 1080P
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4179
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: JVC NX9 + Paladin DCR & Sony G90 : Lumagen Radiance Pro


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to have an HDMI 2.0 card for the HDCP protection if you want to run any 4k or UHD sources. So no matter what resolution you want to run from a 4k source, you still must have the HDMI 2.0 chip.

The other thing is that Lumagen is considering providing a 4k interlaced output. This run at 48Hz would not really push bandwidth too far.

craigr

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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:


The other thing is that Lumagen is considering providing a 4k interlaced output. This run at 48Hz would not really push bandwidth too far.

craigr


That indeed would be interesting and could be the exception to CRT not being able to do 4K.

Make it happen Jim!
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: JVC NX9 + Paladin DCR & Sony G90 : Lumagen Radiance Pro


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
That indeed would be interesting and could be the exception to CRT not being able to do 4K.

Make it happen Jim!

Smile

But even if we don't get that, we still need the HDMI 2.0 card if we want to use UHD sources for the HDCP decryption. UHD down sampled to 1080p would still provide benefit because of the 10-bit color on the UHD BD. So while resolution would not be increased, color fidelity would still benefit. And scaling artifacts should not be any (much) issue because UHD is exactly 4x the resolution of 1080p. So instead of using old school line doublers, now we may need to start using quad reducers.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters for JVC auto-calibration
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct, we get better 10 bit color fidelity and have HDCP 2.2 compliance so if we get nothing else, at least our 4K blu-ray players will be able to deliver 1080p better than we've seen it before. Plus I do think there's potential in the "4K interlaced" kind of idea.

I don't have the programming skills, and I may NEVER have them, but with something that strips out HDCP protection and some suitably fast DACs and amplifiers, some bright boy could probably create a 4K to analog hardware interface that'd run.

They say that the ultimate bandwidth of 4K is 18 GB per second. But do the math.

Consumer 4K is 3840 by 2160 pixel resolution or 497,664,000 pixels per second at 60 Hz refresh. Add 20 percent for overhead and you have a need for 600 MHz of analog system bandwidth.

But take it down to half that, 30 FPS or even 24 FPS and use pulldown. Save more bandwidth by using 4:2:2 rather than 4:4:4 chroma subsampling and save more bandwidth. I think that at 4K you'd never really see any faults with using 4:2:2 anyway.
We can get this under 300 MHz bandwidth with a few tradeoffs!



Even then, in a scaler, who's to say that you can't run an intermediate resolution? If 4K can't be done, how about 3K? Or 2.5K?

2.5K would be....2880 by 1620. That'd require 268 MHz total video bandwidth at a 48 Hz refresh rate and it's certainly within the realm of possibility for any good 9" machine.

What I would really like to see is for Lumagen to include an HDMI loopthrough feature so that if you were to have one of those little gadgets that "accidentally" strips HDCP out of the HDMI signal, then ALL HDMI signals could be routed through it before any further processing is done.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: JVC NX9 + Paladin DCR & Sony G90 : Lumagen Radiance Pro


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Correct, we get better 10 bit color fidelity and have HDCP 2.2 compliance so if we get nothing else, at least our 4K blu-ray players will be able to deliver 1080p better than we've seen it before. Plus I do think there's potential in the "4K interlaced" kind of idea...

They say that the ultimate bandwidth of 4K is 18 GB per second...

But take it down to half that, 30 FPS or even 24 FPS and use pulldown. Save more bandwidth by using 4:2:2 rather than 4:4:4 chroma subsampling and save more bandwidth. I think that at 4K you'd never really see any faults with using 4:2:2 anyway.

We can get this under 300 MHz bandwidth with a few tradeoffs!...

Even then, in a scaler, who's to say that you can't run an intermediate resolution? If 4K can't be done, how about 3K? Or 2.5K?

2.5K would be....2880 by 1620. That'd require 268 MHz total video bandwidth at a 48 Hz refresh rate and it's certainly within the realm of possibility for any good 9" machine.

What I would really like to see is for Lumagen to include an HDMI loopthrough feature so that if you were to have one of those little gadgets that "accidentally" strips HDCP out of the HDMI signal, then ALL HDMI signals could be routed through it before any further processing is done.


The UHD BluRay discs are mastered at 4:2:0 10-bit and the Lumagen can accept 4:2:0 24Hz 10-bit, and then output whatever we want at 4:2:0. This will save more digital bandwidth too. As long as our HDMI 2.2 card can use 4:2:0 (which it should) than we will be good there.

That said, it will cave to be decoded to RGB analog so the analog bandwidth will be the same as any other digital encoding.

18 GHz is the maximum spec for HDMI 2.2. That is only required for 60Hz sources with color above 4:2:0, or if a source is doing something stupid like an UHD BD player using 4:4:4 (cough Samsung). UHD BD only requires just under 9 GHz for full resolution and color, or 1:1 disc reproduction.

The issue with Lumagen and interlaced is that they have only EVER been able to do 1080i and not other resoultion interlaced. If Lumagen makes a 4Ki output mode that will almost certainly be adjustable to almost any resolution you want to interlace or "re-interlace."

Regarding HDCP strippers, all you need to do is put one at the output of the Lumagen and all sources will work. The way the strippers work is to report up the chain that, "I am a display device," therby tricking anything upstream that HDCP 2.2 is being followed. So no, we don't really need an HDMI 2.2 card for HDCP resons, but I would rather not run a stripper as this can always add complications. Also, we really do need HDMI 2.2 if we want any hope of running above about 195 MHz which is where Moome caps out even after raising the voltage to his HDMI chip by 10% above specification (this is what I do for all my CRT 3D clients).

craigr

_________________
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Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters for JVC auto-calibration
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1134



PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:


They say that the ultimate bandwidth of 4K is 18 GB per second. But do the math.

Consumer 4K is 3840 by 2160 pixel resolution or 497,664,000 pixels per second at 60 Hz refresh. Add 20 percent for overhead and you have a need for 600 MHz of analog system bandwidth.

But take it down to half that, 30 FPS or even 24 FPS and use pulldown. Save more bandwidth by using 4:2:2 rather than 4:4:4 chroma subsampling and save more bandwidth. I think that at 4K you'd never really see any faults with using 4:2:2 anyway.
We can get this under 300 MHz bandwidth with a few tradeoffs!


After Craig suggested I meet up with Mike we've spent the last few years working with Kurt to get the Marquee to the point of being able to run 200mhz 1080p/72 cleanly. It was A LOT of work to push it to from 170mhz to 200mhz and wind up with the desired outcome. It's hard to see 300mhz (even at 48hz) as an acceptable solution. Flicker city to say the least..


Quote:

Even then, in a scaler, who's to say that you can't run an intermediate resolution? If 4K can't be done, how about 3K? Or 2.5K?

2.5K would be....2880 by 1620. That'd require 268 MHz total video bandwidth at a 48 Hz refresh rate and it's certainly within the realm of possibility for any good 9" machine.


Hard enough to resolve 1080p and even if Lumagen offers a 4Ki output the processor is $5K. Hard to see many CRT folks shelling out that kind of dough. Just like the blend function that Nash has been pestering Jim about for years; not enough demand means it likely won't see the light of day.

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am FAR from being a software guy so I can't say anything about the complexity of any of these ideas, but to me there is logical sense in a scaler that can also divide the image between multiple projectors and also blend them. I would consider the holy grail of scaler processing to be one that can take a 4K input signal and use it to drive multiple projectors at their best quality resolutions and blend them at the same time.

It does seem to me, however, that once you have a scaler that can downres an incoming hig res image, adding more downrezzed modes to it should not be horribly difficult for the software developer.

Of course there are video bandwidth limitations associated with CRT projectors. But I'd like the freedom to be able to push my system to its limits, or even beyond, if I want to. Don't limit me to 1080p because these machines CAN do more than that.

Incidentally, the reason why the video bandwidth required for 4K is so high is that in the digital domain the color depth information has to be transmitted using the actual color values in digital format. So you have H resolution x V resolution x frame rate x color depth bits. And add overhead data. But once converted to analog, the instantaneous brightness level per RGB channel is a single voltage point, and not 10 (or 12) bits of data representing the same thing. So in this case analog video will actually end up
using less bandwidth at its full resolution capacity than the parent digital signal.
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jbmeyer13




Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Of course there are video bandwidth limitations associated with CRT projectors. But I'd like the freedom to be able to push my system to its limits, or even beyond, if I want to. Don't limit me to 1080p because these machines CAN do more than that.


4K interlaced with raster ringing three quarters of the way across the screen and flicker really isn't "doing more" than 1080p. Doing something and doing it well are two different things as the tradeoffs quickly crush performance.

Quote:
Incidentally, the reason why the video bandwidth required for 4K is so high is that in the digital domain the color depth information has to be transmitted using the actual color values in digital format. So you have H resolution x V resolution x frame rate x color depth bits. And add overhead data. But once converted to analog, the instantaneous brightness level per RGB channel is a single voltage point, and not 10 (or 12) bits of data representing the same thing. So in this case analog video will actually end up
using less bandwidth at its full resolution capacity than the parent digital signal.


Even so it's still way beyond the BW capabilities of the most modified Marquees in exsistence. You'll need a $5K video processor just to downscale the 4K signal AND then require custom porch timings to tame the raster ringing which (even at 48hz) will be god awful. Then of course you have to get around the SMPTE 2082 gamma.

A moome card that could safely and consistently go to 200mhz would be a giant leap forward and is what's needed to complement the best modified Marquee video chains. Hey I hope I'm wrong and all of this can be a reality but it seems like "pie in the sky" to me.

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experiments have shown that raster ringing is caused in large part by having an imbalance between the two coils that together comprise the horizontal deflection yoke coils. When carefully matched ringing can be reduced and even eliminated. But there are other causes of raster ringing other than coil mismatch.

There are some (older) analog video cards that can be used to push well beyond 1080p already. There's one guy here in these forums who has posted photos of him running 4K on a Marquee using one of those cards. Of course it's not a phenomenally sharp image as he's run out of real video bandwidth, but all that does is make me want it even more.

I know there's a limit. I just want to GET THERE. And not stop short of it.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbmeyer13 wrote:
...Just like the blend function that Nash has been pestering Jim about for years; not enough demand means it likely won't see the light of day.

Just have to say that making a blending processor is a dog gone difficult undertaking and requires immense work. Adding interlacing is not that difficult to do comparatively speaking. Jim already told me he's willing to ask Patrick to try and program it... just not right now because the HDR shaping LUT and other features have much higher priority (and rightfully so).

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters for JVC auto-calibration
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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