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Moome card with HDMI 2.0 and HDR possible ?
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16911
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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cmjohnson wrote:
I think the industry is going to be forced to do what it should have done 20 years ago: Switch to fiber optical cable rather than
try to torture a small multi-conductor cable with a multi-GHz bandwidth requirement. SC format connectors would be just fine.

We don't even have the technology to drive a multi-mode fiber to its theoretical bandwidth limit. So, fiber is basically future-proof.

That just pushes the problem elsewhere. At the end of the day we want to see a picture and hear sounds and that has to be done electrically, not optically.

Now that said, maybe there's a way to store movies or content optically such that from storage to projector the video is kept 100% optical. (My brain's exploding thinking of this).

Kal

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on now. Bits are bits. If they're clearly defined as "1" or "0" and delivered with good timing, they're good to go.

Optical, silicon, or magnetic storage media, it makes no difference. 1 is 1, 0 is 0, and that's that.

Fiber is far more bandwidth efficient. More good data can be shoved down a single optical fiber than down a copper cable assembly the size of your leg.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16911
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Come on now. Bits are bits. If they're clearly defined as "1" or "0" and delivered with good timing, they're good to go. Optical, silicon, or magnetic storage media, it makes no difference. 1 is 1, 0 is 0, and that's that.

All true. But I'm not arguing that it's not true. Not sure why you're mentioning this. It's not relevant.

What I'm saying is that at the end of the day, you need to convert from optical to electric somewhere anyway. You can switch the inter-device cabling to optical but then you still need optical <-> electrical converters in the source and target devices and that stuff gets complicated fast. Yes, optical has higher bandwidth but you still have to design high-bandwidth electrical circuitry because, well, it's still required. Like I said, you're just pushing the conversion to a different spot. Optical's great for very long distance runs because it's immune to noise and there's [close to] zero loss over distance. In those very high length runs it makes sense to add the complexity of optical <-> electrical converters. For the short runs we see at home, not so much.

cmjohnson wrote:
Fiber is far more bandwidth efficient. More good data can be shoved down a single optical fiber than down a copper cable assembly the size of your leg.

Yes, but again completely irrelevant to the big picture. You're thinking too much like a theoretical lab scientist, not a an engineer who actually has to make things work. Wink You have to look at the complete picture. The whole system.

Using your broken logic if someone wants to get somewhere the fastest in a car, they should therefore drive a Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Super Sport because it's the world's fastest car. That's the theoretical part. Makes sense right?

But in the real world it turns out that there are a bunch of pot-holled dirt roads and even a few big ditches and a few flooded/washed out areas to get through along the way. So fastest theoretical car isn't necessarily the best or even the fastest in the long run. That's where the engineer comes in and tells you a 4x4 makes more sense.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:57 pm; edited 7 times in total
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5615
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Come on now. Bits are bits. If they're clearly defined as "1" or "0" and delivered with good timing, they're good to go.

Optical, silicon, or magnetic storage media, it makes no difference. 1 is 1, 0 is 0, and that's that.

Fiber is far more bandwidth efficient. More good data can be shoved down a single optical fiber than down a copper cable assembly the size of your leg.



It's way more complicated than that. And why the use of cat5 or Cat6 (shielded) is now being used for high resolution video transfer (room to room,etc).

Fiber optics as simple as it seems is very finicky in actual operation. The cable part of things is fine, but the receiver and transmitter is where the problems really come in.

There was a time when fiber was being used both in network racks and for A/V. Now it seems like most of the really higher end system are using Cat6 Shielded for everything.



The Rack in the picture handles both data and video for a massive medical immersive (3D) system that has maybe 20 dual DPI HD 1080 projectors placed behind a 10 tall rap-around screen. Everything video is definitely Cat6 shielded, and I I'm sure that was the case with control signals. This system had maybe 100 computer Nodes (High speed mini super computers( - there are six in the rack left of where the multi-color wires are going. Everything to and from the Nodes is Cat6 shielded, both control and video. I'm really not sure if all the cabling in those racks are Cat6 shielded, but do know for sure that everything video and video system control was cat6 shielded. No fiber in that system, or any of the other ones I dealt with.

Fiber when used with video was a pain in the azz..



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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for illustrating my point, Mike!

All that well-managed cat 6 cable ends up being a bundle of cables as thick as a fat man's thigh.

All that data can be carried over a single fiber and a system can be built to drop the signals to the projectors
where needed. Right now that would be more expensive but it would also be more efficient and reduce maintenance
costs. Quick, there's a fault in one of the cables in the blue bundle. Go find it!

If you're using the internet, or placing a phone call, the data is going over fiber at least for the long hauls.

Of course the transceivers have to be well engineered. But once you have good fiber transceivers, you've now beat all the
many problems associated with metal cables. Limited bandwidth, limited range, greater susceptibility to environmental damage.

Optical data paths are the future. Right now the cost/benefit analysis favors copper for many applications but do you think the day won't come when that will change?

A lot of people, those living in newer housing developments, get all their data services via fiber already. FITL or FTC. (Fiber In the Loop or Fiber To Curb) When I stopped working for BellSouth back in 2001 we'd been deploying FTC systems in new neighborhoods as standard practice for a few years. The only drawback of it in that application is that if someone does cut a fiber cable, it's nowhere as easy to splice it as it is to splice a cut copper cable. But buried fiber cables are pretty well armored so such events were rare.

Fiber IS the future. I can't wait to get there. The only place I want to see copper cables in a system is the power cable and the speaker cables. I want every interconnect to be fiber, all the same, and kiss the "tweak audiophile snake oil high end cable market" scam goodbye permanently.
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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5615
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:


Of course the transceivers have to be well engineered. But once you have good fiber transceivers, you've now beat all the
many problems associated with metal cables
. Limited bandwidth, limited range, greater susceptibility to environmental damage.



Yes, and therefore we're not there yet. And why fiber is being used only in certain and special applications. Where the Receiver/transmitters are not compact nor inexpensive.

Have you seen what Verizon uses to convert their Fiber to analog?



Fiber really seems like a perfect and best solution, but this sums it up well here:


kal wrote:

But in the real world it turns out that there are a bunch of pot-holled dirt roads and even a few big ditches and a few flooded/washed out areas to get through along the way. So fastest theoretical car isn't necessarily the best or even the fastest in the long run. That's where the engineer comes in and tells you a 4x4 makes more sense.

Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16911
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
All that well-managed cat 6 cable ends up being a bundle of cables as thick as a fat man's thigh.

All that data can be carried over a single fiber and a system can be built to drop the signals to the projectors
where needed. Right now that would be more expensive but it would also be more efficient and reduce maintenance
costs. Quick, there's a fault in one of the cables in the blue bundle. Go find it!

As someone who's been involved with multi-million dollar data centers and the SLAs that are the bread and butter as to how things are done, you're greatly oversimplifying and again just looking at theory and not cost, practicality, or even usability. For example, if that one fiber cable goes, you lose everything and you can't quickly swap out a replacement cable.

The 'thickness' of the cable at this point that you mention is not something we care about.

Quote:
If you're using the internet, or placing a phone call, the data is going over fiber at least for the long hauls.

Yes. Long hauls. Like I mentioned above.

Quote:
Optical data paths are the future. Right now the cost/benefit analysis favors copper for many applications but do you think the day won't come when that will change?

Not all of it. We'll most likely always use electricity so that means copper sometimes make the most sense, even for data paths. You pick what makes most sense.

Quote:
A lot of people, those living in newer housing developments, get all their data services via fiber already. FITL or FTC. (Fiber In the Loop or Fiber To Curb) When I stopped working for BellSouth back in 2001 we'd been deploying FTC systems in new neighborhoods as standard practice for a few years.

I have fiber to the door in my house. Great example of where it makes sense even though there are certain downsides like if the hydro power goes out, the backup battery they installed for the fiber <-> copper converter only allows our phones to work for about ~8 hours. (A 'regular' phone gets power off the phone line so even when your electricity goes out at least your phone still works, not the case with fiber to the door for voice/data).

Quote:
I want every interconnect to be fiber, all the same, and kiss the "tweak audiophile snake oil high end cable market" scam goodbye permanently.

Right. Just like how there's no audiophile HDMI cables today? That's no different from fibre like you mentioned above (bits are bits).

We also have expensive audiophile toslink interconnects today. That's already 100% fibre optic. An example:
Quote:

Nordost WHITELIGHT Glass Fiber Optic Cables – about $33,000

World's most expensive audio cable - Nordost WHITELIGHT
Audiophiles have been using fiber optic cables for awhile now, but they’ve always been an expensive option. Toshiba’s TOSLINK connectors (generically known as EIAJ optical) have been in use since the early 80s. The advantage of optical cable is that the optical fibers—strands of clear plastic or quartz glass used to transmit the signal—are not susceptible to the electromagnetic interference that plagues ordinary cables. It’s not surprising, then, that the most expensive audio cable in the world is a fiber optic cable.

Nordost, a company known for their scientific approach to audio/visual cabling, produces the WHITELIGHT fiber optic cable. Made for two-or-more channel audio systems, this expensive cable uses heavily polished, high quality glass fiber with three layers of low loss insulation and an internal damping mechanism to deliver the best possible sound. Each end is capped with a composite TOSLINK connector with precision-polished lenses.


There will always be overpriced / high-end snake oil scam cables. Doesn't matter what the transfer medium is.

Kal

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Returning to the original subject, does anyone have any information regarding whether or not we may expect to see any HDMI 2.0 input cards for our CRT projectors at any time in the reasonably near future?

Is Moome working on such a product (family) for us?
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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or HDMI 2.1

HDMI 2.0 is missing a lot of what I'd consider baseline 'UHD family' features.
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a CRT projector, 2.0 offers things that are over and above what any CRT projector is capable of, but is sufficient to push one to its ultimate performance limits and beyond.

I would see no additional benefit in asking for anything beyond 2.0. All that would do is delay development and may result in an existing project being scrapped as it approaches completion. (Possibly.)

I'd rather have 2.0 tomorrow than wait six months for 2.1 which won't offer me any benefits I can use.
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