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Is there a quality difference Netflix Blu Ray
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mp20748




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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject: Is there a quality difference Netflix Blu Ray Reply with quote


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I've started up my Netflix (not streaming) Blu Ray delivery service. Last night I watched their Jurassic World Blu Ray. The image quality was all over the place. Serious changing from scene to scene, not like I've ever noticed before. Some scenes kind of looked Standard Def. While even most were really good. Seem like either various different cameras were used in the production, or they had an idiot to the final mastering.

Anyway, was just wondering if getting an Store Purchased Blu Ray would be better in quality than what Netflix delivers at my door.

There are some really nice scenes in this movie, though everything else about it was terrible. The story or idea to put it in theaters seem to only make sense if written by a bunch of middle school kids
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there a quality difference Netflix Blu Ray Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
I've started up my Netflix (not streaming) Blu Ray delivery service. Last night I watched their Jurassic World Blu Ray. The image quality was all over the place. Serious changing from scene to scene, not like I've ever noticed before. Some scenes kind of looked Standard Def. While even most were really good. Seem like either various different cameras were used in the production, or they had an idiot to the final mastering.

Not sure what device you're using to play it back, but on the PS3/PS4 you can hit R3 to show the current resolution in the top right corner. If you have network issues, it may drop from 1080p down to as low as 240p (I believe). So you may indeed be seeing SD at times.

If you're having networking issues (bandwidth issues) it would drop. You can force this high: https://help.netflix.com/en/node/87
But then it's going to stutter/pause as it queues up more. By default it would be set to "Auto" so that if your ISP or home network isn't perfect, it can lower the resolution to avoid stutters/pauses.

What are you playing back on and what sort of bandwidth numbers do you get from http://www.speedtest.net/?

Now that said, Netflix definitely compresses the signal much more than Blu-ray. According to their website they state:

Quote:
Watching movies or TV shows on Netflix uses about 1 GB of data per hour for each stream of standard definition video, and up to 3 GB per hour for each stream of HD video. This can create headaches for Netflix members who have a monthly bandwidth or data cap on their Internet service.


Jurassic world is 2 hours 4 minutes long so expect 6 gigs of data transfer (give or take) for HD. I can't find info on how large the Blu-ray version is, but average Blu-ray movies are about 25 Gig.

So you're definitely losing detail and I see it myself when I compare the two. Netflix for the most part doesn't look "bad" if you're streaming HD, the content's good, and you have good bandwidth, but if you compare to the Blu-ray you can see the low pass filtering they do (loss of high freq detail). Ie: The temporal (or spatial) resolution's been lowered. It's still 1080p/24, but it's been 'smoothed'. Scene to scene detail has been lost.

This is a pet peeve of mine - The average person thinks 1080p is 1080p and that's that. You can compress the snot out of a movie until it's 1/10th the size in terms of bytes and it's still technically 1080p but with tons of lost detail. The average person doesn't care/doesn't know. The fact that it's 1080p is all they care about. I remember years ago a friend commenting on how his new TV was so much better because it was 1080p (previous one was SD I believe). All he watched was DVDs. Wink

All this said, I find Netflix des compression pretty well and unless I do an A/B comparison I'm actually not that bothered by it the loss. We'll sometimes watch something on Netflix streaming instead of getting up to find the Blu-ray. Wink


Kal

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mp20748




Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Kal,
I see I may not have been clear. My question concerned Netfix Blu Ray disk that are delivered to your door. I'm wanting to know if they are different from the otherwise available Blu Ray disk that can be either purchased or rented.

However, that was a bunch of very helpful info on HD and Streaming. That was also important to know.

Thanks
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mp20748 wrote:
I see I may not have been clear. My question concerned Netfix Blu Ray disk that are delivered to your door. I'm wanting to know if they are different from the otherwise available Blu Ray disk that can be either purchased or rented.

No. No difference. For there to be a difference they'd have to get ahold of the masters and remaster them. There would be no benefit or reason to do so.

Kal

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
mp20748 wrote:
I see I may not have been clear. My question concerned Netfix Blu Ray disk that are delivered to your door. I'm wanting to know if they are different from the otherwise available Blu Ray disk that can be either purchased or rented.

No. No difference. For there to be a difference they'd have to get ahold of the masters and remaster them. There would be no benefit or reason to do so.


Hang on a second... The audio actually is sometimes different on Netflix Blu-rays from the retail discs. Often, the "rental" discs are missing advanced audio tracks (and instead contain only core audio), and of course they're often missing any extras, deleted scenes, etc. These discs are clearly rental discs because they usually have a grey silkscreen with white text, and the word "RENTAL" somewhere on the disc.

But, the video? I would say it's very likely the rental disc should be the same as on a retail disc.

However... There is one other possibility that could explain a sub-par disc. They could have used a single-layer disc on the rental discs and targeted the data rate to meet the size. They wouldn't technically have to remaster the discs. The BD authoring studio could simply take the uncompressed master and compress it twice–once for a large data rate/file size for the retail disc, and again for the rental version. It's entirely possible since they're often mastering two different discs anyway, but I don't think it's very likely.

The only way to know for sure would be to look at both on a computer by extracting the main feature and core audio track from both discs and seeing if the file size was the same.

Cheers,
SC
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen this in the past with Blockbuster and RedBox too. dumbed down disk with no extras in order for the studios to double dip by making you pay for 7.1 lossless audio and extras by buying the"real" disk.
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El Duderino




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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If only we knew someone who had an awesome projector and was good with screenshots and could document differences in PQ and could spring $20 for the retail and rental versions. Wink
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Hang on a second... The audio actually is sometimes different on Netflix Blu-rays from the retail discs. Often, the "rental" discs are missing advanced audio tracks (and instead contain only core audio), and of course they're often missing any extras, deleted scenes, etc. These discs are clearly rental discs because they usually have a grey silkscreen with white text, and the word "RENTAL" somewhere on the disc.

But, the video? I would say it's very likely the rental disc should be the same as on a retail disc.

Agreed. I forgot that they'd want to keep it to 1 disc too (to keep mailing cheap) and may have licensing issues around renting the regular discs.

Quote:
However... There is one other possibility that could explain a sub-par disc. They could have used a single-layer disc on the rental discs and targeted the data rate to meet the size. They wouldn't technically have to remaster the discs. The BD authoring studio could simply take the uncompressed master and compress it twice–once for a large data rate/file size for the retail disc, and again for the rental version. It's entirely possible since they're often mastering two different discs anyway, but I don't think it's very likely.

That's what I meant by remastering (possibly incorrectly). I don't see why they'd do that. There's little advantage to doing this as whether it's 1 or 2 layers it's still one disc. I don't think pressing 1 layer vs 2 is much of a cost savings not to mention having to redo a special version would add work. I don't think it's likely either.

Then there's also the fact that if it's compressed too far, it'll look bad, people will complain. That part is doubtful given that their streaming is compressed more than you'd compress by going from 2 to 1 layers (even if you assume a 50% reduction in size - which wouldn't happen most of the time).

Quote:
The only way to know for sure would be to look at both on a computer by extracting the main feature and core audio track from both discs and seeing if the file size was the same.

Yup.

Kal

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draganm




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seems like the Audio and video on rentals are both compromised to boost disc sales . The audio intentionally, the video by default from smaller disc size = automatic compression

So I don't think you need a special low quality master, just a cheaper disc, the burning software will automatically compress it down to fit the smaller memory size

Quote:
Quote:

Ken_McAlinden said: ↑

Their rental copies are typically squeezed on a BD-25. They should add a sticker saying "streaming quality - now in inconvenient 12cm optical disc format!" :laugh:


Yep, that's another thing they do: they use the cheaper BR25 discs instead of the BR50s, so there's not only less content, there's more compression.

Quote:

My son, who owns the first movie in the Hunger Games series, on Blu-Ray - watched his retail copy of the first movie - followed by the rental copy of the second movie the other night.

He knew I had been griping but he probably thought I was crazy.

The next day he told me both he and his girlfriend could easily tell the difference.
He thought the rental copy of the Blu-ray both looked and sounded worse.


at any rate, the rental BD is still better than Streaming. If it's a movie you really, really love you'll have to drop the $20. and buy it.


Last edited by draganm on Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there you go!

$50 for a single movie? I don't think I've ever paid that much! (Other than for a complete season with 10-12 episodes / multiple discs).

Kal

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draganm




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

typo, 2 and 5 keys are right next door
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... This makes me want to go buy a retail disc and rent one from Redbox and compare.

I will say... People are partially to blame for this. I know people that were renting discs from Netflix, ripping them, and turning them around and send them back as quickly as possible, thereby greatly increasing the number of movies they were renting. Some of them even had the balls to call it "time shifting" as if it had any relation to what we do with DVRs.

No doubt people do the same with Redbox, and no doubt the studios know this. If people are going to steal your stuff, you might as well give them the stripped-down version.

People want cheap watered-down crap, so that's what we're getting.

SC
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Spanky Ham




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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:
If only we knew someone who had an awesome projector and was good with screenshots and could document differences in PQ and could spring $20 for the retail and rental versions. Wink


I am not sure who you are talking about .........Strids, Rocco, CIR, Nash, Dr. Dog, Curt. Wink Razz
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El Duderino




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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
I will say... People are partially to blame for this. I know people that were renting discs from Netflix, ripping them, and turning them around and send them back as quickly as possible, thereby greatly increasing the number of movies they were renting. Some of them even had the balls to call it "time shifting" as if it had any relation to what we do with DVRs.

No doubt people do the same with Redbox, and no doubt the studios know this. If people are going to steal your stuff, you might as well give them the stripped-down version.

People want cheap watered-down crap, so that's what we're getting.

SC


I do this with Redbox, and I hardly consider it "stealing' anything. I do consider it "time shifting". I'll rent a movie for a single viewing when it's convient for me, and view the movie when it's convient for me. The fact that those two convient times to rent and view are seperate doesn't make it stealing IMO. After I view it a single time, I delete it to make room for another rental.

Also, the faster that disk gets back into a RedBox or returned to Netflix, the faster they can rent it again and the faster someone else get to view it. If I return a RedBox rental in < 1 day, you can bet they'll rent it again that day so they may get more rental $, not less.

As far as picture quality on rental disks, I'll be looking for something more concrete than ancedontal verbage for someones brothers sons. Given there is lots of threads showing how various streaming services suck in comarision to BD, and not many doing similiar with rental vs retail BD, I don't suspect it's very widespread. As far a people wanting cheap watered-down crap affecting PQ, see streaming. Rolling Eyes
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gregstv




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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I purchased on EBay a copy of U571 on Blu-ray from England. When I went to play it would only play back in 1080i. I always run source direct. When I questioned them I got a full refund. These guys sell thousands of movies on EBay. How many people don't know what they are getting.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
El Duderino wrote:
If only we knew someone who had an awesome projector and was good with screenshots and could document differences in PQ and could spring $20 for the retail and rental versions. Wink


I am not sure who you are talking about .........Strids, Rocco, CIR, Nash, Dr. Dog, Curt. Wink Razz

May be impossible to show if most of the loss is temporal (spatial) resolution loss. You can't capture that in still shots. It's only seen in moving video. The exact frames between the two version would look different and maybe the lower bitrate one would look a bit softer but in person seeing the motion would likely show a bigger difference.

Kal

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draganm




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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:
As far as picture quality on rental disks, I'll be looking for something more concrete than ancedontal verbage for someones brothers sons. Given there is lots of threads showing how various streaming services suck in comarision to BD, and not many doing similar with rental vs retail BD, I don't suspect it's very widespread. As far a people wanting cheap watered-down crap affecting PQ, see streaming. Rolling Eyes
we're not comparing rental BD quality to streaming, the discussion is vs. Retail store bought copies.

I actually don't really care. streaming is low quality, it''s obviously somewhere around 1080i actual quality, maybe not even that. To me it looks like up-scaled 480P. I don't think anyone will say their 1080P is true 1080P.

The rental discs looks better than streaming, by a big margin. If the rentals are missing DTS audio and are compressed 20% , so what. I'm not a videophile, I just like to watch movies. If it's something I really, really love I will buy it. First 4 seasons of game of thrones set me back about $200. but I don't regret it.
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mp20748




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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Spanky Ham wrote:
El Duderino wrote:
If only we knew someone who had an awesome projector and was good with screenshots and could document differences in PQ and could spring $20 for the retail and rental versions. Wink


I am not sure who you are talking about .........Strids, Rocco, CIR, Nash, Dr. Dog, Curt. Wink Razz

May be impossible to show if most of the loss is temporal (spatial) resolution loss. You can't capture that in still shots. It's only seen in moving video. The exact frames between the two version would look different and maybe the lower bitrate one would look a bit softer but in person seeing the motion would likely show a bigger difference.

Kal


Kal is more right on this, because screenshots cannot capture the real or true resolution capability of a good setup. The shots will only give you an idea or for the most part, do a good job as representing what the image looks like on the screen. Totally useless for any True and/or quantitative means for comparison sake.

Also, my experienced has shown that Netflix Blu Rays are not the same quality as the "Purchased"

I've asked this question many times over the years and in this thread is the first I've seen anyone stating that there is a difference, and I agree. The purchased for the most part are better image quality, but it's not always discernible. Therefore if you only want to watch movies, I'm with Draganm that either of them should be OK. The only difference where one is preferred over the other should be for collection purpose
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El Duderino




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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By screenshots I also mean framegrabs. If there is no discernible differences in the same frame from a rental and retail, then ..... there is no discernible difference. Motion pictures ARE a series of still frames, especially for progressive.

There's lots and lots of single frame still images about that clearly and easily show the difference between various streaming and BD. If there is a difference between rental and retail BD in PQ, then a frame grabs from rental and retail should capture it and side-by-side A/B comparison should show it. I don't buy that it's impossible to capture, measure, quantify, or document, and if it is, it's going to be hard to indict anything here.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-networking-media-servers-content-streaming/1977785-interstellar-blu-ray-vs-itunes-vs-vudu-vs-amazon.html
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you can do screen grabs, but it would be easier to simply extract the main feature with core audio from both a retail and rental disc and compare the file sizes. If they're both 116 minutes, but one is 13GB and the other 20GB, you know one is much more compressed than the other.

Kal and Mike's point about comparing screen grabs is valid in that sitting and staring at a single frame can mask differences in some cases and exaggerate them in others. It's a data point, just like comparing file sizes.

SC
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