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Something odd happened last night w/G90
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:47 am    Post subject: Something odd happened last night w/G90 Reply with quote


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Was watching a movie and about 2 hours in I heard a faint click from inside the pj and the convergence shifted slightly (about a scan line thickness). I mentioned this in another thread back in May but it hasn't happened since, until last night. Whats different this time is that now I can't get into service or expert menus. Regular menu is OK but when I press ENTER, ENTER, UP, DOWN ENTER I don't get the message if I want to enter service menu.

Changed batteries, tried to access menus via the G90's onboard controls and cycled power via rocker switch. No joy. No error codes. Anyone have suggestions as to what could be going on here.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update. I was able to enter service menu when input A was selected. The Moome is Input B which is the only Input I use. Very strange behavior which I've not seen reported before.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23729
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When is the last time you changed the Dallas chip?
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Checked my emails and the Dallas chip dates back to 03/2009 so its about 9 1/2 years old. Def towards the end of its serviceable life.

Last edited by HaydnG90 on Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about this one. You do have "STATUS" turned ON right? You can't enter the service mode if STATUS is off.

This could be a Dallas chip issue. Did the convergence shift horizontally and vertically, or just one direction? Have I rebuilt your DF board? That also could be an issue if the image shifted primarily vertically.

Also, your BA board could most likely use a rebuild though I doubt that it's related. If you wind up sending me hardware you may want me to do all three things. I can give you a combined service discount.

Best,
craigr

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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions. Is STATUS setting Input specific or global. If the former then maybe it is off. I'll check this evening. I was in service mode when the problem occurred so something happened so accessibility was not an issue at the start of the viewing session.

My convergence has always been a little quirky. Cold the red is shifted about a 1/4" to the right. As the set warms up it aligns with the other tube colors. I then go into service mode to tweak ever slightly the alignment as the set continues to settle after an initial 15 min warm up period. Convergence suddenly shifted to the right if I remember correctly.

DF board is stock but the BA is a modded one I got from MP.

I'm tempted to install a fresh Dallas chip and see how things settle. I emailed you about sending the chip next week.
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Harnois



Joined: 17 Jul 2018
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would a fresh Dallas chip sort this out btw? Newbie here, I'm genuinely curious.
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Curt Palme
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dallas chip has an internal lithium battery that keeps the memory stored. A typical lifespan is about 10 years on the battery, most G90 owners had no idea this battery could die. As a result, some g90 owners that don't frequent this forum don't know about the potential issues, so they may be sitting at 18-20 years on that battery.

If the battery reaches a low critical level with the set running, there's a really good chance that the set will shut off, and spot burn all three tubes, rendering the set useless. So that's the main reason to change it.

Any other weird issues like this one could be caused by a bad Dallas chip, so the best thing is to change it to at least eliminate that potential problem.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, its time especially as FrankD said the batch of chips he used seemed to have a shorter lifespan than 10 years. I got 10 years out of my first chip, 9.5 on the current FrankD chip. Fingers crossed the issues are related. If not at least this essential PM has been completed.

Any calibration settings will also be lost when the Dallas takes a dump.
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ask4me2



Joined: 07 Jul 2017
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So say the lithium battery in the Dallas is not able to hold the memory settings and the saved settings is lost. How does it help to buy a new empty Dallaschip and put in a new with good battery if the chip does not contain the correct G90 setup information. Can't that also cause a red88 situation and spotburn the tubes?
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once the memory is lost due to failed internal Li the calibration data can't be retrieved. If the file has been saved on a PC it can be copied over to the new Dallas.
As far as a totally virgin Dallas goes. Installing this on the YA will not result in spot burn or red88 errors. I'm not 100% certain how it works but I think there are factory settings stored elsewhere on the YA which get transferred to the virgin Dallas to avoid such issues.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know when I read the tittle of this post "Something odd happened last night w/G90" I dozed off for a few minutes and for some reason I drempt you turning on the lights in the kitchen and finding the G90 making a sandwich. Laughing
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km987654



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2763
Location: Australia

TV/Projector: Barco BG809s


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
You know when I read the tittle of this post "Something odd happened last night w/G90" I dozed off for a few minutes and for some reason I drempt you turning on the lights in the kitchen and finding the G90 making a sandwich. Laughing



I see now how you got to 25000 posts Laughing
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 25459
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

km987654 wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
You know when I read the tittle of this post "Something odd happened last night w/G90" I dozed off for a few minutes and for some reason I drempt you turning on the lights in the kitchen and finding the G90 making a sandwich. Laughing



I see now how you got to 25000 posts Laughing


From the desk mind of Analog. Smile

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banzairun



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 125
Location: NJ


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
The Dallas chip has an internal lithium battery that keeps the memory stored. A typical lifespan is about 10 years on the battery, most G90 owners had no idea this battery could die. As a result, some g90 owners that don't frequent this forum don't know about the potential issues, so they may be sitting at 18-20 years on that battery.


Being more of a Barce & Ehome guy (that averages about .5 posts a year here), I have never been inside a G90, but has anybody ever tried an F-RAM in place of the Dallas in these?

Over the last few years, I've used them to replace Dallas, ST Zeropower/Timekeeper and other low-power CMOS (remote battery backed) RAM on probably at least 150 80s/90s arcade machines and legacy pro audio outboard gear. All expensive stuff where just getting the battery out of everything and not ever having to worry about it again is good practice.

There are very rare cases where they won't "take", due to something like wanting to be enabled in a specific manner, but as long as all is well, they're good for 150 years or something like 100 trillion writes with no battery, so they just might outlast the tubes...

They're about $10-20 each and no matter the application, I usually stick to the new SMD-in-DIP-carrier sort from guys who cater to the pinball machine market, as it's hard to trust sources for real DIP parts, like anything else in the IC market these days. Lots of counterfeits and pulls from things like well-used copiers being sold as new.

example: https://www.pinitech.com/products/cat_nvram.php
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

banzairun wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
The Dallas chip has an internal lithium battery that keeps the memory stored. A typical lifespan is about 10 years on the battery, most G90 owners had no idea this battery could die. As a result, some g90 owners that don't frequent this forum don't know about the potential issues, so they may be sitting at 18-20 years on that battery.


Being more of a Barce & Ehome guy (that averages about .5 posts a year here), I have never been inside a G90, but has anybody ever tried an F-RAM in place of the Dallas in these?

Over the last few years, I've used them to replace Dallas, ST Zeropower/Timekeeper and other low-power CMOS (remote battery backed) RAM on probably at least 150 80s/90s arcade machines and legacy pro audio outboard gear. All expensive stuff where just getting the battery out of everything and not ever having to worry about it again is good practice.

There are very rare cases where they won't "take", due to something like wanting to be enabled in a specific manner, but as long as all is well, they're good for 150 years or something like 100 trillion writes with no battery, so they just might outlast the tubes...

They're about $10-20 each and no matter the application, I usually stick to the new SMD-in-DIP-carrier sort from guys who cater to the pinball machine market, as it's hard to trust sources for real DIP parts, like anything else in the IC market these days. Lots of counterfeits and pulls from things like well-used copiers being sold as new.

example: https://www.pinitech.com/products/cat_nvram.php

One issue is that the G90 writes to the three tubes timers and the chassis timer eevery second (or maybe even 10th of a second, I forget). Still may be enough writes, but it will certainly wear an F-RAM out more quickly than normal.

I guess if it's every sencond that's only 144 million writes over a 10,000 hour useage.

Might be worth a shot.

craigr

_________________
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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jcwhite57



Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Maryville, TN


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig I had you copy my Dallas chip quite awhile ago and maybe going on 10 years but not sure. I rarely use the G90 but don't want to loose the tubes. What's the going rate for copying a Dallas? The permanent solution mentioned would be great if it works.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just keep in mind that almost every CRT projector is now approaching (or exceeding) 20 years of age, including the G90s. No way that there will be a G90 out there in 10 years from now, so I'd say anyone changing a Dallas chip now will be set for the life of the set.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcwhite57 wrote:
Craig I had you copy my Dallas chip quite awhile ago and maybe going on 10 years but not sure. I rarely use the G90 but don't want to loose the tubes. What's the going rate for copying a Dallas? The permanent solution mentioned would be great if it works.

Just shoot me an email and we can work something out.

G90 turns 20 next year Thumbs Up

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
No way that there will be a G90 out there in 10 years from now, so I'd say anyone changing a Dallas chip now will be set for the life of the set.


Thats just defeatist talk. I don't see why I will not be enjoying the G90 10+ years from now, notwithstanding lightning strikes or tornado's. I put about 250-300hours on the tubes per year. Currently at 3K hours and have a parts mule and full set of boards (incl YA) just in case.


Last edited by HaydnG90 on Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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