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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:34 am Post subject: Least possible lag for a scaler? |
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Hi all, i have been using the LIMO PRO that comes with a Barco Cine 9 for my old retro games, which does the job fairly well so it seems.
The issue with a Barco Cine 9 is it doesnt scan to 15.7kHz, so i need to upscan these retro consoles.
Most output 240p at 60Hz or very close to it, some output 59.18Hz, and some are 288p at 50Hz. There is the odd one or two that put out 480i 60Hz or 576i 50Hz.
I want not only the least possible lag, but want no more than 480p or 576p outputs, on the LIMO PRO ive used 1050i 120Hz and 1150i 100Hz modes with some games, but then some games look better that way than others.
The problem with lag is it kills the gaming experience, and makes some games totally unplayable, especially where quick reactions and accurate timing are needed.
I need S-Video input, RGB-S, and possibly also composite video. Only need RGB-S or RGB-HV output.
I have put some of these consoles through the Faroudja scaler in my AVR, and found the lag to be totally unacceptable.
No idea how much lag the LIMO PRO adds, but its not much.
What would be ideal is a scaler that added a black line for every second line making the 240p into 480p without changing the image, which should result in zero lag.
I have looked at the XRGB Mini Framemiester, which looks like a good option, but the XRGB-3 looks to have more inputs and options.
What else is around that will do what i am after?
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:57 am Post subject: |
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How about the old fashion farudja line doubler/quadruplers? Have you ever had hands on one of those?
_________________ Tech support for nothing
CRT.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: |
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No, but im not sure if theyd be any better than the ones in the AVRs of today.
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Just skimmed Case, but the Radiance line has a "game mode" that provides very little lag that is pretty much undetectable.
If you want to do it on the cheap and you bide your time, you could get an XD that would do the job. Or you could jump for a newer unit and get a great VP for other purposes too.
Even when a Raiance is not in game mode, usually the video is actually ahead of the audio still so the lag is very little.
But you know I am a Lumagen man
craigr
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Id have no other real good use for it though Craig to warrant the outrageous price they go for new, its a bloody lot of money for what it is!
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:14 am Post subject: |
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261751756779
331490493265
Seems like a good toy for that price in my mind. You might be surprised
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Ill have a look soon Cheers mate!
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:24 am Post subject: |
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I cant view whatever that is, it is coming up as a phone number to my phone
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:31 am Post subject: |
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Is there anything that will just add a black line every second line to make the image look identical to the original?
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | I cant view whatever that is, it is coming up as a phone number to my phone |
They are completed eBay.com listings for RadianceXD's.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010 Posts: 1135
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Link Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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AnalogRocks wrote: | How about the old fashion farudja line doubler/quadruplers? Have you ever had hands on one of those? |
I used to pipe my Nintendo GameCube through my Faroudja NRS back in the day and it worked great; no lag what so ever. I'd output 1280 x 720 and it looked awesome. I loved playing Metroid Prime and Rogue Squadron
_________________ Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:11 am Post subject: |
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If its changing the res there will always be some lag, id rather not change the res if i could avoid it, which is why i want 480p with every second line black.
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:18 am Post subject: |
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I always prefer the original untouched resolution, it looks very good and was designed that way!!
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:35 am Post subject: |
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If I ever get the time I'll dig out my doublers and quaduplers. Never enough hours in the day.
_________________ Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:03 am Post subject: |
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There is nothing worse than a 240p image raped into 480p, may as well use an emulator!!
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:18 am Post subject: |
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CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | I always prefer the original untouched resolution, it looks very good and was designed that way!! |
To be fair though, those original resolutions don't exacly look the same displayed on a monitor that's massively sharper than anything that existed 20-30 years ago. I mean, if you're displaying a game from 1985 on a six-foot screen, you're already straying very far away from how those games were ever originally designed.
SC
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:06 am Post subject: |
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CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | There is nothing worse than a 240p image raped into 480p, may as well use an emulator!! |
I also have an Extron box that is said to convert 480i into 240p
_________________ Tech support for nothing
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HD done right!
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:50 am Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | I always prefer the original untouched resolution, it looks very good and was designed that way!! |
To be fair though, those original resolutions don't exacly look the same displayed on a monitor that's massively sharper than anything that existed 20-30 years ago. I mean, if you're displaying a game from 1985 on a six-foot screen, you're already straying very far away from how those games were ever originally designed.
SC |
I have to dissagree there Crabb, 240p on my XG looks f***en excellent in every sense of the word, even on my 9 foot wide screen.
Its one area where the XG really blows the Cine 9 away.
The biggest screens i saw used in any arcade were 50" 4:3 rear projection, usually Mitsubishi or Toshiba, but a couple used Pioneer and some even used Sony. Most arcade games were 240p 60Hz, which is the resolution used by most home consoles up til the Panasonic 3DO used a 640x480i standard, more than 80% of Sega Saturn games were 240p, with a small few using 480i for NTSC and 576i for the improved PAL versions.
If youve ever played Sega Rally on the Saturn ( in your case it wouldve probably been the rushed US version that lacked the polished graphics of the Japan and PAL versions ) with it upscaled, it looks HORRIBLE, yet in its original 288p 50Hz original format looks pretty damn good for it's day.
The problem with upscaling them is usually looking more blocky than they even did on 240p, which makes them look worse.
The majority of games for current consoles are 720p, but the difference there is the console does the scaling on the fly and makes them look perfectly fine at 1080p.
Scaling 240p to 960p makes them look just like youre playing an emulator, and the whole idea of using genuine original hardware is to have them look perfect, as they did back then.
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6319 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:56 am Post subject: |
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I know Justin claims to have seen or felt there was no lag scaling his Game Cube to 720p, however Nintendo games often have very good and very forgiving controls, where as some others really need good timing. When they have that, all is smooth and easy.
Need For Speed on 3DO is a prime example of where lag destroys an awesome game, and any 1 on 1 fighting game such as any on the NEO•GEO also suffer greatly due to milliseconds of lag making moves very hard to pull off, and even harder to use at the right time.
_________________ Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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gregstv
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 628 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I did read that the DVDO VP30 is one of the best for games. The least amount of lag.
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