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Help with my Sony KD 36FS130
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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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kal wrote:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Im not sure what youre calling the 480i inputs, he says he is using composite video.


480i inputs refer to composite/S-video/component and analog cable. All are 480i inputs. The SVM stands for Scan Velocity Modulation. It's Standard def processing built into these sets to 'blur' the scan lines. With all the picture enhancements built into the WEGA series I doubt it will pass a 240p signal untouched.

No they are not, they are 15.7kHz inputs, there is no given resolution for those inputs.

Yes there is. Analog is right. Composite is either 480i or 576i. Both of which have frequency rates and resolutions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-definition_television

EDIT: Err, ok - I see what you're saying. Composite doesn't define the resolution necessarily. It defines the frequency. That's true. The actual resolution may be lower. The timings would still be the same.

kal wrote:
Not true. SVM speeds up and slows down the electron beam as it turns on/off to create sharper edges.

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
In that case this TV wont be usable.

You need a TV that displays the image straight up with no molestations, the electron beam must move at the correct pace for 15.7kHz, there can be no delays in timings, and no manipulation of the image.

TVs with SVM still run at the same clock rate. SVM doesn't affect timings. The fact that the TV uses SVM has nothing to do with the refresh rate/resolution/timing. SVM can be turned on/off and it does't change the fact that the signal's 15.7Khz or 60Hz. It's something that done at the display end only since it's done in the TV only. It doesn't affect the source...

Kal

Yes, that IS what im saying. Not interested in timings for any of that, it is irrelevant. The inputs are NOT called 480i inputs simply because that is one resolution they may accept. Ive never ever heard them called by a resolution in my life. It might be your opinion that he is correct in calling them 480i inputs, but it is not an officially correct title for a composite input anywhere other than this forum. I have seen component inputs on TVs labelled with 480i/576i, but they were on TV sets that had an internal scaler/deinterlacer and there were inputs for both interlaced inputs as well as progressive scan inputs, still they weren't called 480i inputs, they were component inputs. No one learns anything when you want to use personally adopted terms that are not correct. A composite video input is a composite video input, it is there for the input of composite video which can be a range of different resolutions and V frequencies, calling it anything else is simply not helpful to anyone in any way and it is what caused me to ask for clarification in the first place.

You clearly state that SVM speeds and slows the electron beam, and I clearly state THIS IS A PROBLEM.

How do you think it does this on the fly without some sort of buffering?? Does it guess what is coming before it speeds up the beam or does it wait and see what is needed, buffer that, and then paint from memory?

The way the guns work is VERY simple. Ill put it in point form because its pretty clear you don't follow what is being said, and still think you know how all this works, which is where I think we are having an issue here.

*You point the gun at the screen and pull the trigger.
*The game console paints the very next frame white or blue.
*The gun sees the light when it reaches the part of screen you have the gun pointed at.
*The gun tells the console it has seen the light
*The console knows exactly where that electron beam should be on the screen, hence knows where the gun is pointed.

So if the electron beam is manipulated in ANY WAY, for example speeding up or slowing down, the console will miscalculate the gun location because the TV has decided to move the electron beam at a non standard rate.

If the screen is line doubled the electron beam moves from one side of the screen twice as fast as it should, hence the console will think youre aimed at the middle of the left half instead of the screen centre.

If there is a lag, from processing the image in such a way as to allow the electron beam to be sped up or slowed down, the console cant calculate the location of the gun.

You clearly state it is something done at the TV end and doesn't affect the source, which I have said over and over til im blue in the face that THIS IS A PROBLEM... How many times will it need to be explained that doing ANYTHING at the TV end is causing the problem regardless of the effect on the source??

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlightlyCubed wrote:
Interesting so the TV pretty much won't work for it. That's so weird. I appreciate the information though as I literally thought it only had to do with SD and HD. What's so odd is I tried two TVs so I thought it was user error or something. So just to clarify this TV cannot be used at all for light guns even if I adjust settings etc?

Probably not. But adjust all the settings, see how you go.

Your best bet is to ask on a gaming forum though, see what TVs they are using for their game guns. I can tell you how the guns work, and what will stop them working, but I cant tell you what sets will work without seeing them. Almost any TV that only has composite video on it or maybe s-video will work as a rule, but anything with component inputs will usually have some sort of internal processing circuit that cant be bypassed, these TVs have a deflection circuit designed around one scanning frequency, and 15.7kHz is not it.

The NEC XM29 will work, and so will the Sony PVM and BVM series as they are all true multisync displays. Any CRT video projector will also work apart from the Barco Cine9 or 909 because they don't scan to 15.7kHz, the rest all do with no internal processing.

You can see here the GunCon working fine on the PS1 using an NEC XG 852:


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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
You clearly state that SVM speeds and slows the electron beam, and I clearly state THIS IS A PROBLEM.

How do you think it does this on the fly without some sort of buffering??

Buffering (as in frame buffering) has nothing to do with raster painting. My 1990's analog TV has SVM. It has no buffering of any sort. It was an old, completely analog TV.

I don't know if this is the issue, but I was simply pointing out that what Jeremy wrote (that SVM was to reduce scanlines) was incorrect. In retrospect, I don't know why I bothered saying that as it probably has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I'm simply stating that SVM doesn't affect the 15.7Khz source timing. I don't know anything about retro videogaming. I wouldn't think SVM would cause issues any more than turning the sharpness up or down would cause issues as that's all that SVM is really for: To slow down the beam for a split second when you go from painting black to white. It only affects edges - the 1 pixel transition from black to white or vice versa. In a light gun game I would expect it would only affect the outside edge of whatever target is being painted. Like edge enhancement. Only the outside edge.

I doubt SVM is the issue. It's probably a red herring. Most TVs throughout the 80's and 90's used SVM and most people didn't even know. In 95% of the TVs it could not be turned off at all. If you got your TV ISF'ed (calibrated) in the 80s or 90s, the ISF guy would know which wire to cut to disable it.

Quote:
So if the electron beam is manipulated in ANY WAY, for example speeding up or slowing down, the console will miscalculate the gun location because the TV has decided to move the electron beam at a non standard rate.

I think you're misunderstanding what SVM does. Think of it like turning up the sharpness on the TV. That wouldn't (shouldn't?) affect a light gun, so SVM won't either. If it did, none of these games would have worked for 20-30 years. It won't affect how fast the object moves across the screen, just how the very transition edge of it is painted, just like turning up sharpness. If turning up sharpness on your TV doesn't make the light gun go wonky, neither will SVM. Again, SVM has nothing to with adjacent frames or buffering between frames. It's a really simple tool used by old analog TVs before frame buffers even existed.

Kal

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said it speeds up the electron beam, now youre saying it doesn't do that? Then you say it slows down the beam for a split second.... Ive never ever heard of it before so ive got no idea what youre trying to explain to me, but id say it has nothing to do with this issue.

No one at any point said the games wouldn't work, I said the GUNs wouldn't work. The lightguns don't see the targets or the image on the screen, they only see the light emitted from the phosphor, and almost always only ever see the blue. The entire screen is painted white, all 240 lines of it.

Adjusting the sharpness isn't something ive ever done when it comes to making light guns work, so it probably has no impact on it. Contrast and brightness do though, they have a big impact.

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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
You said it speeds up the electron beam, now youre saying it doesn't do that? Then you say it slows down the beam for a split second.... Ive never ever heard of it before so ive got no idea what youre trying to explain to me, but id say it has nothing to do with this issue.

I didn't say it doesn't speed up the beam.

I didn't invent SVM so I cannot explain the gory details. All I know is that it slows down the beam to paint better edges and that:

(a) it doesn't affect the 15.7Khz timing because it can't - otherwise most standard def TVs sold in the 80's and 90's would not have worked correctly, and

(b) most TVs in that era had SVM and it couldn't be manually disabled (it was a hated 'feature' that videophiles all looked to get disabled through wire cutting - some high end units like Sony XBRs let you disable it in menus). So I really doubt SVM causes any issues light gun gaming - if it did, light gun gaming could not have existed back in the 80s and 90s as it would have affected most customers and would have been a nightmare since on cheaper sets it could not be disabled.

So I agree it with you - I don't see how it can be the issue.

There's probably lots of info out there on the technical details of how SVM works if someone wants to Google, but like I wrote earlier I think this is a red herring and not worth pursuing in figuring out where the OP's issue is.

Of course, I may be completely wrong too.

My 2 cents.

Kal

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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I was only suggesting SVM may be an issue. On a WEGA it can be disabled in the menu's.

Case, you are correct. Composite is composite. I called them 480i because that's the standard here. Most of the TV's I have seen aren't multi standard NTSC/PAL so most of the time 480i is what is fed into a NorthAmerican set. You are right though. 15.75Khz can be either 480i or 240p. They are the same scanning frequency.

At issue is whether this WEGA does ANY processing AT ALL to the incoming signal, whether it's 240p or 480i.

I don't currently have a WEGA handy, my neighbour ended up with my Moms 32" 4:3 WEGA when she downsized. He's a gamer but not a light gun guy. Maybe I could talk him into it though. I have a gun that will work with the PS3 he owns. He also has PS2. If I get a chance in September I'll ask him.

Kal, I remember SVM on the Phillips sets back around 1992. It made the picture look awful. I was more into audio back then though so I didn't pay too much attention to the TV's.

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