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Help with my Sony KD 36FS130
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SlightlyCubed




Joined: 18 Aug 2015
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:59 am    Post subject: Help with my Sony KD 36FS130 Reply with quote


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Hello everyone!,

I created a account on this website because I am in dire need of some advice from people who understand CRTs and SDTV much better then I do. I am attempting to use light guns on my Sony KD 36FS130 and I cannot seem to make them function. Now I was told that it should work on a SDTV, and after checking the specs on Cnet, which are below:


Technology

CRT


Aspect ratio

4:3


Comb Filter

digital


Color Temperature Control

Yes


By all accounts they should work, right? I know its a long shot that anyone here happens to know completely what is going on but I would love the help. I read somewhere that it should be at 50hz, is there an option to change this TV to that setting? Thanks so much in advance and I hope someone has some answers for me!
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What part of the world are you in?

What game system are you using?

What game(s) are you trying to play?

How do you have it hooked up?

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SlightlyCubed




Joined: 18 Aug 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in the United States. I am attempting to use a PlayStation and a SNEs but I have access to many more systems. (I have a retro room) The systems are hooked up using the three colored connection. I just tried the NES with the two colored connection cable and Duck Hunt wont register the gun connected too the system. So I can't determine if it is the system or the TV.
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Curt Palme
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like it's the system or the gun. All the TV does is display the image, so if you can see it, it's got nothing to do with the TV. The guns have photocells in them, which can go bad.
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AnalogRocks
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlightlyCubed wrote:
I am in the United States. I am attempting to use a PlayStation and a SNEs but I have access to many more systems. (I have a retro room) The systems are hooked up using the three colored connection. I just tried the NES with the two colored connection cable and Duck Hunt wont register the gun connected too the system. So I can't determine if it is the system or the TV.


Which color connections are you using? Red, Green and Blue or Yellow, Red and White?

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SlightlyCubed




Joined: 18 Aug 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using the Yellow Red and White on the PS1 and for the NES its only one of the audio cords. I read somewhere that the TV is supposed to flash when using the gun and the light reflected back is what triggers it, right? Is it possible that I somehow got the only SDTV not able to function with light guns?.. lol. Also does anyone (Long shot) know the best tweaks for this TV? I am struggling to find a balance..
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlightlyCubed wrote:
I am using the Yellow Red and White on the PS1 and for the NES its only one of the audio cords. I read somewhere that the TV is supposed to flash when using the gun and the light reflected back is what triggers it, right? Is it possible that I somehow got the only SDTV not able to function with light guns?.. lol. Also does anyone (Long shot) know the best tweaks for this TV? I am struggling to find a balance..


OK I RTFM ( Read The Freakin' Manual ) on your TV. Doesn't mention any kind of video scaling going on internally. Also says it only accepts a 480i signal over component so not likely doing any up-scaling.

Off hand I'd say go into the video menu and turn SVM to OFF.

Adjust the Brightness level ( this is Black level ) on a paused screen, so that you can just see the black details appear in the shadows then add a couple of notches to it.

Adjust the Contrast control (this is White level ) down until everything get's dull then ramp it up until you have the bright part of the picture at acceptable levels but not so high as to loose detail in the light areas. Also know as blowing out the highlights.

On my SONY's I usually ran no higher than 75-80% on the Contrast. Try it, look at a bright scene and ramp the Contrast up and down. You may even see some blooming, that's where the bright areas seem to expand their edges as the Contrast is turned up. You don't want that. It's bad for the set and hard on the power supply. So turn the Contrast down to where you don't loose detail in the white areas and that will be the 'right' setting.

Color control, set this to where the colors are bright but not bleeding at the edges, especially reds.

__________________________________________

Light gun connections? How are these hooked up?
I've owned a bunch myself. Some have an inline RCA connector that has to be plugged into the TV's Yellow jack first, then the console video cable plugged into that. Other cord plugged into the console's game controller port. ( PS1, PS2 )

Other's just needed to be plugged into the consoles game controller port only. (e.g. Sega Master System )

CRT televisions put the picture on the screen by 'painting' with an electron beam in lines. For the NTSC TV system this is 480 lines painted from top left to bottom right. The light guns see this line and know where the shot is placed based on this.

I'll ask Case to pop in here. He's a retro game guy too.

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
Sounds like it's the system or the gun. All the TV does is display the image, so if you can see it, it's got nothing to do with the TV. The guns have photocells in them, which can go bad.

Thats not strictly correct.

Its got almost everything to do with the TV.

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue here is likely the fact the TV has some sort of image processing circuit that adds delay to the displayed image.

When you pull the trigger, the screen will usually, but not always, flash white for one full frame, when the gun sees the blue light ( the gun only sees the blue phosphor as a rule ) it will tell the console it has seen it, the console knows where youre pointing the gun because it knows exactly where it was up to in the refresh.

The lag added by image processing will mean the gun wont see the flash til long after the console has sent it, and just 2ms late is far more than you need to f*** it up.

The guns dont really go bad, the photocells in them dont really fail, and if they did ive been pretty lucky to have more than 30 guns that all still work perfectly, even if one or two did fail, this guy is trying two different types, both of which i have loads of working ones of right here.

480i wont work for older consoles, there is processing involved there. The consoles output 240p at 60Hz, and if the TV cant display that perfectly with no internal changes, you need a TV that can.

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlightlyCubed wrote:
I am using the Yellow Red and White on the PS1 and for the NES its only one of the audio cords. I read somewhere that the TV is supposed to flash when using the gun and the light reflected back is what triggers it, right? Is it possible that I somehow got the only SDTV not able to function with light guns?.. lol. Also does anyone (Long shot) know the best tweaks for this TV? I am struggling to find a balance..

There are loads of SDTVs that have poxy line doublers in them that add too much lag for the guns to work.

Regardless of what has been said here, simply seeing the image on your TV doesnt mean a thing, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the TV.

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlightlyCubed wrote:
I am in the United States. I am attempting to use a PlayStation and a SNEs but I have access to many more systems. (I have a retro room) The systems are hooked up using the three colored connection. I just tried the NES with the two colored connection cable and Duck Hunt wont register the gun connected too the system. So I can't determine if it is the system or the TV.

Never used a SNES gun, i assume you either mean the bazooka or the Justifier? They probably both plug into controller port 2.

The NES Zapper has to be plugged into port 2.

The Menacer, Justifier, American Laser Games Game Gun etc get connected to Port 2 on the Mega Drive.

The GunCons for PS1 can be connected to both ports, and require a composite sync feed, which they take from composite video. The PS1 Justifier connects to either port.

The Saturn Virtua Gun connects to either port.

The Master System Light Phaser connects to port 2 from what i remember, id have to read the book on that one.

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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see it in the manual for the TV but allot of the WEGA TV's did do processing on the 480i inputs, some to 960i. That's why I said to turn off SVM that adds some processing there.
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CasetheCorvetteman




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PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is SVM??

If it scales 240p to 480i, it wont work.

If it treats 240p as 480i, it tries to deinterlace it, and it wont work.

If it has a setting for 120Hz double refresh mode, it wont work, turning that off will line double the image instead.

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CasetheCorvetteman




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PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not sure what youre calling the 480i inputs, he says he is using composite video.
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Im not sure what youre calling the 480i inputs, he says he is using composite video.


480i inputs refer to composite/S-video/component and analog cable. All are 480i inputs. The SVM stands for Scan Velocity Modulation. It's Standard def processing built into these sets to 'blur' the scan lines. With all the picture enhancements built into the WEGA series I doubt it will pass a 240p signal untouched.

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
The SVM stands for Scan Velocity Modulation. It's Standard def processing built into these sets to 'blur' the scan lines.

Not true. SVM speeds up and slows down the electron beam as it turns on/off to create sharper edges.

Link: http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq/tvscanvel.htm

Quote:
What is Scan Velocity Modulation?

(From: Jeroen H. Stessen (Jeroen.Stessen@philips.com).)
Scan velocity modulation occurs around the transients in the luminance signal. The beam is sped up just before and just after the edge and it is slowed down during the edge. This makes for a sharper edge. On an alternating B/W pattern (stripes, checkerboard) you will see that the white parts get smaller and the black parts get whiter. This geometry error is a side-effect. Some say that this is the main intended effect of SVM.

SVM is SUPPOSED to be used to compensate for the spot blowup at high beam current. Peaking does not help to improve sharpness because the higher peak beam current also gives a fatter spot. SVM CAN work in that case. Unfortunately it is often misapplied, too much SVM will give a very unnatural picture, with obvious horizontal geometry errors.

If applied properly, SVM can improve the picture. Unfortunately there has been a rat race, led by Japanese, suggesting that more is better.

Some people will simply advise turning the contrast down. At low beam current the spot size will be acceptably small and SVM is not needed. In most, if not all, cases they will disable the SVM circuit, usually by pulling the supply connector to the SVM panel. That panel is often fixed to the neck of the picture tube, behind the video amplifier panel.


I used to always turn it down or off on my analog TVs (if possible) as it would worsen the picture if used too much with over/undershoot - almost like a form of edge enhancement.

EDIT: Heh - was Googling more about it and came across an AVS post from 2001 where I commented on it. Wink http://www.avsforum.com/forum/16-crt-projectors/101457-what-scan-velocity-modulation.html

Kal

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CasetheCorvetteman




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PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Im not sure what youre calling the 480i inputs, he says he is using composite video.


480i inputs refer to composite/S-video/component and analog cable. All are 480i inputs. The SVM stands for Scan Velocity Modulation. It's Standard def processing built into these sets to 'blur' the scan lines. With all the picture enhancements built into the WEGA series I doubt it will pass a 240p signal untouched.

No they are not, they are 15.7kHz inputs, there is no given resolution for those inputs. 240p is what the consoles almost always output, sometimes on some games the resolution will be 320x448i or something like that for split screen two player modes, but it is still 15.7kHz regardless.

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CasetheCorvetteman




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PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
The SVM stands for Scan Velocity Modulation. It's Standard def processing built into these sets to 'blur' the scan lines.

Not true. SVM speeds up and slows down the electron beam as it turns on/off to create sharper edges.

Link: http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq/tvscanvel.htm

Quote:
What is Scan Velocity Modulation?

(From: Jeroen H. Stessen (Jeroen.Stessen@philips.com).)
Scan velocity modulation occurs around the transients in the luminance signal. The beam is sped up just before and just after the edge and it is slowed down during the edge. This makes for a sharper edge. On an alternating B/W pattern (stripes, checkerboard) you will see that the white parts get smaller and the black parts get whiter. This geometry error is a side-effect. Some say that this is the main intended effect of SVM.

SVM is SUPPOSED to be used to compensate for the spot blowup at high beam current. Peaking does not help to improve sharpness because the higher peak beam current also gives a fatter spot. SVM CAN work in that case. Unfortunately it is often misapplied, too much SVM will give a very unnatural picture, with obvious horizontal geometry errors.

If applied properly, SVM can improve the picture. Unfortunately there has been a rat race, led by Japanese, suggesting that more is better.

Some people will simply advise turning the contrast down. At low beam current the spot size will be acceptably small and SVM is not needed. In most, if not all, cases they will disable the SVM circuit, usually by pulling the supply connector to the SVM panel. That panel is often fixed to the neck of the picture tube, behind the video amplifier panel.


I used to always turn it down or off on my analog TVs (if possible) as it would worsen the picture if used too much with over/undershoot - almost like a form of edge enhancement.

EDIT: Heh - was Googling more about it and came across an AVS post from 2001 where I commented on it. Wink http://www.avsforum.com/forum/16-crt-projectors/101457-what-scan-velocity-modulation.html

Kal

In that case this TV wont be usable.

You need a TV that displays the image straight up with no molestations, the electron beam must move at the correct pace for 15.7kHz, there can be no delays in timings, and no manipulation of the image.

There is probably nothing at all wrong with the guns, and just because an image can be seen on a TV screen doesnt mean all is well there. This guy is probably waiting for replacement guns to arrive from ebay now since he was told they go bad... Oh do they??? Not im my 30+ years experience with them...

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
Im not sure what youre calling the 480i inputs, he says he is using composite video.


480i inputs refer to composite/S-video/component and analog cable. All are 480i inputs. The SVM stands for Scan Velocity Modulation. It's Standard def processing built into these sets to 'blur' the scan lines. With all the picture enhancements built into the WEGA series I doubt it will pass a 240p signal untouched.

No they are not, they are 15.7kHz inputs, there is no given resolution for those inputs.

Yes there is. Analog is right. Composite is either 480i or 576i. Both of which have frequency rates and resolutions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-definition_television

EDIT: Err, ok - I see what you're saying. Composite doesn't define the resolution necessarily. It defines the frequency. That's true. The actual resolution may be lower. The timings would still be the same.

kal wrote:
Not true. SVM speeds up and slows down the electron beam as it turns on/off to create sharper edges.

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
In that case this TV wont be usable.

You need a TV that displays the image straight up with no molestations, the electron beam must move at the correct pace for 15.7kHz, there can be no delays in timings, and no manipulation of the image.

TVs with SVM still run at the same clock rate. SVM doesn't affect timings. The fact that the TV uses SVM has nothing to do with the refresh rate/resolution/timing. SVM can be turned on/off and it does't change the fact that the signal's 15.7Khz or 60Hz. It's something that done at the display end only since it's done in the TV only. It doesn't affect the source...

Kal

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SlightlyCubed




Joined: 18 Aug 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting so the TV pretty much won't work for it. That's so weird. I appreciate the information though as I literally thought it only had to do with SD and HD. What's so odd is I tried two TVs so I thought it was user error or something. So just to clarify this TV cannot be used at all for light guns even if I adjust settings etc?
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