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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY
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 Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:16 am Post subject: Edge Blenders UNITE !!!! Tell Lumagen we want it!!!! |
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Copied from the VP forums on AVS.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/1901849-edge-blenders-unite-tell-lumagen-we-want.html
Since May of 2007 I have been wishing for Lumagen to add an edge blend feature to one of their products. But 3D came along and that took up all the space on the Radiance
FPGA and stole my thunder. There was a time we had a good number of people that wanted this feature but now I assume it is down.
But it still can be done if we get the message to lumagen. I vision not only home theater enthusiasts to benefit from this but also commercial
customers who need very large screens and strange aspect ratios or set ups for trade shows conferences, churches , schools etc.
So send Lumagen Support an e-mail and ask if they would think about adding edge blending to their new unit or at least add some features that
would help those who use alternate equipment for blend processing achieve a perfect seamless blend zone.
support@lumagen.com
Some of the features for those who already edge blend but what their edge blenders lack is the ability to adjust the gamma, greyscale and CMS in the Blend zone at certain
% whites and Colors. A 21 point separate blend zone calibration for each output of the blending PJ would be ideal if the entire Edge blend feature is not added.
The blend zone adjustment pixel size could be user defined and adjustable to match the current edge blend VP's blend zone size that is used.
So Edge blenders Unite and even if you don't want it for yourself but would like to see others tackle the challenge ask lumagen to add this for those of us who are more adventurous
Thanks you
Athanasios
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huggy
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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Location: Melbourne,Australia
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Nash
Are you not happy with the tv ones? Have you considered the pc route, apologies if this topic has already been covered.
Dave
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| huggy wrote: | Nash
Are you not happy with the tv ones? Have you considered the pc route, apologies if this topic has already been covered.
Dave |
If TV-One would add specific % white Gamma adjustment for say 21 points or more in the blend zone and not a global
gamma blend zone adjustment that almost all edge blend units use then you would be able to get a perfect seamless blend zone. I do not even think PC solutions have this. it is because of the drop off at the edges that the lenses we use
cause. If our lenses were twice the size in diameter then we would have a uniform brightness across the tube face.
Zone contrast just isnt good enough and it causes the edges to bloom. If you look in a tube face with a full color field you can see there is no drop off. The drop off causes uneven gamma at different % whites. Only the Seoes software is one that corrects this from what Curt has told me from his experience with it. Seos uses 6 adjustable gamma and CMS zones with in the blend zone.
Also I would like to get fewer links in my video chain.
But if they will not implement a full edge blend feature then adding user defined pixel by pixel gamma, cms and greyscale adjustments in the blend zone as well as global for the entire image then I would be happy.
Athanasios
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
But if they will not implement a full edge blend feature then adding user defined pixel by pixel gamma, cms and greyscale adjustments in the blend zone as well as global for the entire image then I would be happy.
Athanasios |
Lumagen needs to make this happen. Those TV ones are crap; too inflexible and as you stated "pixel by pixel gamma" is what's needed to get the job done.
Commercial blend units being driven by high powered workstations make the zone disappear because they have the processing power and software to tweak every last little nook and cranny of the blend zone. I'd love if Lumagen would dump the 3D and other crap that is unnecessary and offer a blend function. While we're at it I'd love a new FPGA so I can run my Mini at 200mhz without distortions 
I think there's a lot of people who would consider blending but don't because of the cost of having so many processors and also because none of the available units really work very well. If you have one unit that could handle all of the necessary functions and provide a seamless blend zone I think there would be many interested folks.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: |
But if they will not implement a full edge blend feature then adding user defined pixel by pixel gamma, cms and greyscale adjustments in the blend zone as well as global for the entire image then I would be happy.
Athanasios |
Lumagen needs to make this happen. Those TV ones are crap; too inflexible and as you stated "pixel by pixel gamma" is what's needed to get the job done.
Commercial blend units being driven by high powered workstations make the zone disappear because they have the processing power and software to tweak every last little nook and cranny of the blend zone. I'd love if Lumagen would dump the 3D and other crap that is unnecessary and offer a blend function. While we're at it I'd love a new FPGA so I can run my Mini at 200mhz without distortions
I think there's a lot of people who would consider blending but don't because of the cost of having so many processors and also because none of the available units really work very well. If you have one unit that could handle all of the necessary functions and provide a seamless blend zone I think there would be many interested folks. |
Post that in the AVS thread 
Thanks!
Nashou
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jbmeyer13
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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just did
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mp20748
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Forget trying to get a company to make something they really don't have the experience with, nor really understand the goal of it's better outcome.
Go with one of the best out there, and can be found used from time to time. But concerning capabilities, this unit has it all. Plus it's the only way you'll not have image degradation (which is common on the less powerful units) that causes soft to non natural looking images. It's a sizable unit that's PC controllable. The support is first class and if you plug it into the internet, they'll dial right into it from their (Vista) end.
I have to run out, but when I get back I post a picture of one of them and what the software looks like on my PC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JthK887Zelk
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Too Expensive Mike. They are more than the Analog way devices.
I am also in contact with another company that does in fact have in blend zone adjustments at
certain % white values and in the non overlap area as well. But they do not offer custom resolutions and non of their existing resolutions are in a 4x3 aspect. But they said they would look into it for me. I can give them the exact timings needed for the 1056x800p. But id like to also add a possible close to 4k resolution as well for 2.4 aspect.
This unit is dirt cheap but I don't expect much from it at that price point but I might be pleasantly surprised. And it is a 4k and 3D capable unit.
Athanasios
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AnalogRocks
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Too Expensive Mike. They are more than the Analog way devices.
I am also in contact with another company that does in fact have in blend zone adjustments at
certain % white values and in the non overlap area as well. But they do not offer custom resolutions and non of their existing resolutions are in a 4x3 aspect. But they said they would look into it for me. I can give them the exact timings needed for the 1056x800p. But id like to also add a possible close to 4k resolution as well for 2.4 aspect.
This unit is dirt cheap but I don't expect much from it at that price point but I might be pleasantly surprised. And it is a 4k and 3D capable unit.
Athanasios |
I can smell your brain cooking from here!
When do I get to come by and see the blend again?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Too Expensive Mike. They are more than the Analog way devices.
I am also in contact with another company that does in fact have in blend zone adjustments at
certain % white values and in the non overlap area as well. But they do not offer custom resolutions and non of their existing resolutions are in a 4x3 aspect. But they said they would look into it for me. I can give them the exact timings needed for the 1056x800p. But id like to also add a possible close to 4k resolution as well for 2.4 aspect.
This unit is dirt cheap but I don't expect much from it at that price point but I might be pleasantly surprised. And it is a 4k and 3D capable unit.
Athanasios |
I can smell your brain cooking from here!
When do I get to come by and see the blend again? |
LOL, You can see it when you pick your stuff up !
I would much rather have Lumagen do this. I think they understand CRT better than most as that is why they started, with a VP made to help CRT projectors.
The Vista is a great VP but way too much overkill and features.
All we need is Soft edge blend with no vertical banding, complete control of CMS in the blend zone at multiple levels of white and color, almost like their CUBE CMS for the entire image but in the blend zone to make adjustments for the drop off that CRT's have on the edges. And custom resolutions.
That vist has way too much going on, I am sure Id love it if I could get one for under 5k. yeah Right !
Nashou
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: |
But if they will not implement a full edge blend feature then adding user defined pixel by pixel gamma, cms and greyscale adjustments in the blend zone as well as global for the entire image then I would be happy.
Athanasios |
Lumagen needs to make this happen. Those TV ones are crap; too inflexible and as you stated "pixel by pixel gamma" is what's needed to get the job done.
Commercial blend units being driven by high powered workstations make the zone disappear because they have the processing power and software to tweak every last little nook and cranny of the blend zone. I'd love if Lumagen would dump the 3D and other crap that is unnecessary and offer a blend function. While we're at it I'd love a new FPGA so I can run my Mini at 200mhz without distortions
I think there's a lot of people who would consider blending but don't because of the cost of having so many processors and also because none of the available units really work very well. If you have one unit that could handle all of the necessary functions and provide a seamless blend zone I think there would be many interested folks. |
Good luck, as I am not a big fan of 3D. Unfortunately, I think there are enough people out there that want it that will make it a product differentiator. It is funny that Mike Garrett at AVS told me that not many people ask for 3D glasses or even care about 3D when buying a pj. I would be curious how many people even watch 3D outside of prolific AVS poster Deja Vu.[/b]
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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If i see a used Vista Spyder for sale i for sure will try get it.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | So Kurt go vote for it on AVS
Nashou |
I once asked CRT users in here to contact OPPO to request a custom resolution option on the new players.
Guess what.?
Good luck activating users in here..
You know how i feel about the Lumagen, i would prefer if they address some issues before they try to add more features.
Ill also think anyone investing in blend units today would want something 4K capable on the input.
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Nashou66
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ecrabb
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TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | So Kurt go vote for it on AVS
Nashou |
I once asked CRT users in here to contact OPPO to request a custom resolution option on the new players.
Guess what.?
Good luck activating users in here.. |
I don't mean to be negative or make anybody feel bad, but why would a company burn scarce development and testing resources to build and test a feature that almost no customers will benefit from or be interested in? it would make no business sense whatsoever. I tried to get Oppo to rebuild their horribly convoluted IP control protocol and got nowhere, and that was a feature that a significant portion of users could have benefited from. That actually made some business sense at least.
At least with Lumagen, a good blend feature could be used by many more customers than a tiny handful of CRT users.
I applaud you guys' efforts, but you need to be realistic. These people have businesses to run, and they aren't running a hobby.
Cheers,
SC
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | So Kurt go vote for it on AVS
Nashou |
I once asked CRT users in here to contact OPPO to request a custom resolution option on the new players.
Guess what.?
Good luck activating users in here.. |
I don't mean to be negative or make anybody feel bad, but why would a company burn scarce development and testing resources to build and test a feature that almost no customers will benefit from or be interested in? it would make no business sense whatsoever. I tried to get Oppo to rebuild their horribly convoluted IP control protocol and got nowhere, and that was a feature that a significant portion of users could have benefited from. That actually made some business sense at least.
At least with Lumagen, a good blend feature could be used by many more customers than a tiny handful of CRT users.
I applaud you guys' efforts, but you need to be realistic. These people have businesses to run, and they aren't running a hobby.
Cheers,
SC |
Right, and Lumagen could break into a commercial market they never had before with this feature.
There are many small vendors who would love to have a super cool booth at trade shows but the 20k plus processors like the Vista Spyder are just out of reach for them . Using some cheap 4x3 digitals and a fairly inexpensive edge blender
would be something for them to have access to to compete with the big boys. I also see Schools, Churches, store owners , etc all benefiting.
All I can say is the new unit will have plenty of horse power and is geared more towards the pro installer but could make the jump to a commercial installer like Curt.
And Jim has always said edge blending is a possibility if it help him sell a few more units.
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stridsvognen
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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A new Lumagen unit with much more horse power, able to process 4K in and 4K out, free timings inside the max pixel clock, and a bypass function who will make it do timings without having to convert all incoming signals to RGB and then back to the selected output colors pace.
When there is a unit like that, ill for sure want to buy one.
I think the Spyder units have adjustments allowing to custom correct for the issues on the output for each resolution, who happens when you process a signal, and a engine with more power than any Lumagen will ever get. And quite a different price.
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Nashou66
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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| Link Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Tom, you have my support on soft edge blending. I already have been asking Jim about it 
| jbmeyer13 wrote: | Lumagen needs to make this happen. Those TV ones are crap; too inflexible and as you stated "pixel by pixel gamma" is what's needed to get the job done.
Commercial blend units being driven by high powered workstations make the zone disappear because they have the processing power and software to tweak every last little nook and cranny of the blend zone. I'd love if Lumagen would dump the 3D and other crap that is unnecessary and offer a blend function. While we're at it I'd love a new FPGA so I can run my Mini at 200mhz without distortions . |
Hey Justin,
Lumagen doesn't need to dump any features with the current product line. The 214x (and future processors) support clocks up to 4k 60Hz which is wayyyyyy more than 1080p at 200MHz.
Also, 3D and other "unnecessary" features don't take anything away from the FPGA when you are not using them. If you are not running 3D it's not using up any gates in the FPGA.
The feature that really ate up the FPGA was the addition of the finite points CMS (125 and 729 point CMS). This feature is implemented all the time even when you have not enabled the advanced CMS. And this feature is absolutely necessary as it MAKES many digital projectors that otherwise would be junk. As Steve said, they are not running a hobby, it is a business and 200 MHz 1080p is not really much of a business model, but calibrating all digital projection colors is.
There will never be an FPGA software update for the XE, XS, or Mini that can support such high frequencies because the actual FPGA hardware chip is only supposed to be clocked to 148.5 MHz top. It took me months to convince Jim to allow me to work with the Radiance to make the PLUS version, and that was only after Pat secretly granted me access to the clocks for experimentation and I had installed it on five client machines and my own system. Furthermore, the HDMI output chips can't handle such high frequencies and are also overclocked when run above 148.5 MHz. The hardware just ain't in the box to do it.
I know you are on the bubble with your Mini already based on the private conversations we've had off forum. If you want to run the highest possible clock on your current hardware, than as you know, go back to a firmware that is pre 125 point CMS and you will find more overhead there. The Mini is the base model though and was really never intended for PLUS frequencies. I have a client with a Mini+ on a 9500LC Ultra that started having issues with high frequency after the advanced CMS was implemented so we've kept him back at the older FW versions.
The 214x however has all the required hardware to run any frequency that any CRT could ever accept. And it still supports 3D and full CMS. 4k has made it possible to run whatever frequency you want into your CRT... as long as your HDMI transcoder can support the clock rate...
...wait you guys, who is it again who wants and has been pushing for a 4k input card for CRT cough
craigr
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