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oppo 103 or 103D for direct connection to Barco 1209
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Murillo



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: oppo 103 or 103D for direct connection to Barco 1209 Reply with quote


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Im thinking of quitting HTPC and convert to blu ray player.

The oppo 103 or 103D has caught my attention. Is there any difference in image quality between the two if youre not using the darbee? Im thinking of driving the player directly into a moome ext full HD V.3 running into a Barco 1209. There is a chance that Im going to buy a Lumagen with Darbee in the future. So the darbee feature is not so important. Im mainly interested which of the two players gives the best image quality.

I noticed the players have different chips, so which one would be preferable for my setup?


Im watching DVD:s, Blue Rays and a lot of MKV files.


Best regards
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16165
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Craig Rounds said the Darbee version has a better chip or processor in it. Also you can use the HDMI input for adding a Satellite or cable box to take advantage of the Oppo's excellent upscaling to 1080p. You might not want a lumagen after tho Wink

But the lumagen is Awesome for Color calibration and other uses like Active Area Scanning etc.

Athanasios

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OPPO 103D is for sure a nice player, the best DVD deinterlacer/ upscaler i have ever seen, if it stands next to a Lumagen, the lumagen will feel like the girl in the end of Fifty Shades of Grey. spanked to tears.

For best image quality you will prefer the HDMI 2 output.

Its also the best Netflix streamer i have seen to date, and on level with the OPPO 83 for BD quality.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3839
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
I think Craig Rounds said the Darbee version has a better chip or processor in it. Also you can use the HDMI input for adding a Satellite or cable box to take advantage of the Oppo's excellent upscaling to 1080p. You might not want a lumagen after tho Wink

But the lumagen is Awesome for Color calibration and other uses like Active Area Scanning etc.

Athanasios

Yup.

The implementation of the VP chips in the "D" models is better too. You can bypass more of the garbage in source direct mode with the "D" models than with the earlier models. We went around in circles with this in the Oppo beta tester forum.

craigr

_________________
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3839
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
The OPPO 103D is for sure a nice player, the best DVD deinterlacer/ upscaler i have ever seen, if it stands next to a Lumagen, the lumagen will feel like the girl in the end of Fifty Shades of Grey. spanked to tears.

That really depends on what capabilities are required. If all you want to do is 1080p 60Hz than the Oppo may suffice. If you want to have a CRT that can perform to modern standards of excellence than the Lumagen is certainly going to produce a far better image holistically than a stand alone Oppo.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 9.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16165
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurt, did you go through all the color spaces while looking at the chroma pattern on on the spears and munsil disc to make sure you had the right combination?

There is a procedure you follow to find the best combination. And Since there are three units doing some color space conversion it may be possible you had the Lumagen or moome set up wrong. The Lumagen will nver feel like a school girl unless you put it up against a Taranex $100k processor.

Which Conversion does the Oppo use for the chroma? Or the Lumagen? Or the Moome?

Nearest Neighbor?

bilinear?

bicubic?

You need to know these in deciding how to go from the Oppo to the CRT projector. There could be 10-20 different ways to get the final RGB 444 that the CRT will eventually see.

I know you have done a lot of testing and I am just wondering what method you used in detail.

Athanasios

_________________
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Kurt, did you go through all the color spaces while looking at the chroma pattern on on the spears and munsil disc to make sure you had the right combination?

There is a procedure you follow to find the best combination. And Since there are three units doing some color space conversion it may be possible you had the Lumagen or moome set up wrong. The Lumagen will nver feel like a school girl unless you put it up against a Taranex $100k processor.

Which Conversion does the Oppo use for the chroma? Or the Lumagen? Or the Moome?

Nearest Neighbor?

bilinear?

bicubic?

You need to know these in deciding how to go from the Oppo to the CRT projector. There could be 10-20 different ways to get the final RGB 444 that the CRT will eventually see.

I know you have done a lot of testing and I am just wondering what method you used in detail.

Athanasios


I have been true all the combinations possible,, from up to down, sideways and whatever you can think off.

You can find combinations where you run true the chain getting a decent looking multi burst, using a 444 out of a player, where it have some serious overshoot, who will compensate for roleoff other places, but the final result when you watch a movie dont get as pleasant as when its just done right.

It looks like the Moome card is the best place to convert from 4:2:2 to RGB, and it looks like the moome just changes the color space, and dont up sample to 4:4:4.

Going RGB or 4:4;4 out of the players mostly result in a croma overshoot/ peaking on the high resolution part.

The Lumagen is just pretty f*ck*** up no matter how you run it+ it messes up the gray ramp.

The best output i have been able to get from a BD player is from the OPPO 83, and HDMI 2 out of the OPPO 103D.

I would love to say that it dont matter how you run it on a standard 9" CRT projector, but im not so sure thats the case.

The Lumagen mess really got to my attention when i played with the G90.

The Lumagen feels like a scool girl when it comes to deinterlacing and scaling. you should try it, you will be surprised.

I mostly have PAL DVD here, but ill be able to point out places in almost every movie where the Lumagen messes up the deinterlacing, so before i got the 103D i used the 83 progressive out, or my Denon DVD A1 XVA 576P out.

Getting the Oppo 103D was very surprising, much better saturation of the colors, close to no artifacts or combing.

Ill guess the 103D have quite a nice engine to pull off that kind of processing.


I sure would love to see someone else post some results and impressions.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
The OPPO 103D is for sure a nice player, the best DVD deinterlacer/ upscaler i have ever seen, if it stands next to a Lumagen, the lumagen will feel like the girl in the end of Fifty Shades of Grey. spanked to tears.

That really depends on what capabilities are required. If all you want to do is 1080p 60Hz than the Oppo may suffice. If you want to have a CRT that can perform to modern standards of excellence than the Lumagen is certainly going to produce a far better image holistically than a stand alone Oppo.

craigr


Craig i did write you a PM, where i challenge you to do a G90 VS Marquee competition, i would love to include the processors and players in a stunt like that.

Im just waiting for your reply. Thumbs Up
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km987654



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2719
Location: Australia

TV/Projector: Barco BG809s


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Nashou66 wrote:
Kurt, did you go through all the color spaces while looking at the chroma pattern on on the spears and munsil disc to make sure you had the right combination?

There is a procedure you follow to find the best combination. And Since there are three units doing some color space conversion it may be possible you had the Lumagen or moome set up wrong. The Lumagen will nver feel like a school girl unless you put it up against a Taranex $100k processor.

Which Conversion does the Oppo use for the chroma? Or the Lumagen? Or the Moome?

Nearest Neighbor?

bilinear?

bicubic?

You need to know these in deciding how to go from the Oppo to the CRT projector. There could be 10-20 different ways to get the final RGB 444 that the CRT will eventually see.

I know you have done a lot of testing and I am just wondering what method you used in detail.

Athanasios


I have been true all the combinations possible,, from up to down, sideways and whatever you can think off.

You can find combinations where you run true the chain getting a decent looking multi burst, using a 444 out of a player, where it have some serious overshoot, who will compensate for roleoff other places, but the final result when you watch a movie dont get as pleasant as when its just done right.

It looks like the Moome card is the best place to convert from 4:2:2 to RGB, and it looks like the moome just changes the color space, and dont up sample to 4:4:4.

Going RGB or 4:4;4 out of the players mostly result in a croma overshoot/ peaking on the high resolution part.

The Lumagen is just pretty f*ck*** up no matter how you run it+ it messes up the gray ramp.

The best output i have been able to get from a BD player is from the OPPO 83, and HDMI 2 out of the OPPO 103D.

I would love to say that it dont matter how you run it on a standard 9" CRT projector, but im not so sure thats the case.

The Lumagen mess really got to my attention when i played with the G90.

The Lumagen feels like a scool girl when it comes to deinterlacing and scaling. you should try it, you will be surprised.

I mostly have PAL DVD here, but ill be able to point out places in almost every movie where the Lumagen messes up the deinterlacing, so before i got the 103D i used the 83 progressive out, or my Denon DVD A1 XVA 576P out.

Getting the Oppo 103D was very surprising, much better saturation of the colors, close to no artifacts or combing.

Ill guess the 103D have quite a nice engine to pull off that kind of processing.


I sure would love to see someone else post some results and impressions.



Is there anyone else with these thoughts on Lumagen. Up till now I have only heard good things about Lumagen of which I have two. I may use them in a very basic way at this time and perhaps have not explored all of the possibilities but I do wonder how someone can come to these conclusions.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

km987654 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Nashou66 wrote:
Kurt, did you go through all the color spaces while looking at the chroma pattern on on the spears and munsil disc to make sure you had the right combination?

There is a procedure you follow to find the best combination. And Since there are three units doing some color space conversion it may be possible you had the Lumagen or moome set up wrong. The Lumagen will nver feel like a school girl unless you put it up against a Taranex $100k processor.

Which Conversion does the Oppo use for the chroma? Or the Lumagen? Or the Moome?

Nearest Neighbor?

bilinear?

bicubic?

You need to know these in deciding how to go from the Oppo to the CRT projector. There could be 10-20 different ways to get the final RGB 444 that the CRT will eventually see.

I know you have done a lot of testing and I am just wondering what method you used in detail.

Athanasios


I have been true all the combinations possible,, from up to down, sideways and whatever you can think off.

You can find combinations where you run true the chain getting a decent looking multi burst, using a 444 out of a player, where it have some serious overshoot, who will compensate for roleoff other places, but the final result when you watch a movie dont get as pleasant as when its just done right.

It looks like the Moome card is the best place to convert from 4:2:2 to RGB, and it looks like the moome just changes the color space, and dont up sample to 4:4:4.

Going RGB or 4:4;4 out of the players mostly result in a croma overshoot/ peaking on the high resolution part.

The Lumagen is just pretty f*ck*** up no matter how you run it+ it messes up the gray ramp.

The best output i have been able to get from a BD player is from the OPPO 83, and HDMI 2 out of the OPPO 103D.

I would love to say that it dont matter how you run it on a standard 9" CRT projector, but im not so sure thats the case.

The Lumagen mess really got to my attention when i played with the G90.

The Lumagen feels like a scool girl when it comes to deinterlacing and scaling. you should try it, you will be surprised.

I mostly have PAL DVD here, but ill be able to point out places in almost every movie where the Lumagen messes up the deinterlacing, so before i got the 103D i used the 83 progressive out, or my Denon DVD A1 XVA 576P out.

Getting the Oppo 103D was very surprising, much better saturation of the colors, close to no artifacts or combing.

Ill guess the 103D have quite a nice engine to pull off that kind of processing.


I sure would love to see someone else post some results and impressions.



Is there anyone else with these thoughts on Lumagen. Up till now I have only heard good things about Lumagen of which I have two. I may use them in a very basic way at this time and perhaps have not explored all of the possibilities but I do wonder how someone can come to these conclusions.


If you dont test compare it to anything, its hard to come to any conclusion at all. I think most users are like you.

Its more flexible than anything else i have here, and it looks like all these features have a price. Would be more fun if it was a win win situation, i would like if the Radiace XS+ was reference for all, as it would give me options i will love to have.

I did not spend that amount of money in the expectation of ending up not using it.

It seems like bad behavior to share experiences on a forum if they are not super positive, i just think other thinking about buying stuff like that might deserve other than the the ever praising comments from the manufacture and sellers, who will never want to talk about limitations and weak points.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16165
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off the Spears ands Munsil pattern you are using to show the problem is an Out OF Band pattern . that means it is out of the specs that all encoded video will ever use. That pattern was designed to go past the ability of most video components to see how well they can handle it. So the lumagen handles it really well. If your that picky use the game mode it will do even better.


So real world video will not have that issue. use Toy story, or Moulan rouge where the one guy has a red jacket, if you see jaggies on that edge of his red jacket or any place else in the scene then you can complain.that scene is well known for bad chroma up sampling problems.


Nashou

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"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
First off the Spears ands Munsil pattern you are using to show the problem is an Out OF Band pattern . that means it is out of the specs that all encoded video will ever use. That pattern was designed to go past the ability of most video components to see how well they can handle it. So the lumagen handles it really well. If your that picky use the game mode it will do even better.


So real world video will not have that issue. use Toy story, or Moulan rouge where the one guy has a red jacket, if you see jaggies on that edge of his red jacket or any place else in the scene then you can complain.that scene is well known for bad chroma up sampling problems.


Nashou


Tell me what happens when you set game mode to on and off.

And do your Radiance pass the bit resolution as when displayed direct from the OPPO ?

I dont know enough about the patterns, i just happened to notice a difference on movie material, and was able to find some patterns who did not looked the same when it was passed true the radiance.

Sometimes i wonder how its possible to do real time CMS correction, when its not possible to make a simple pass true without messing with the signal.

I did try it on different displays, and it seems to be mostly visible on CRT, The JVC and some flat panels its harder to notice a difference, they all display the test patterns with same issues when passing the Radiance.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3839
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

km987654 wrote:

Is there anyone else with these thoughts on Lumagen. Up till now I have only heard good things about Lumagen of which I have two. I may use them in a very basic way at this time and perhaps have not explored all of the possibilities but I do wonder how someone can come to these conclusions.

One of Kurt's biggest problems is that he will see a test pattern that he has deemed all important and absolute, and then that test patter has a nocebo effect on his perception of the actual video quality. He his a limited understand of digital video signal processing and transmission and he than comes to the conclusion that the hardware he is using does not perform well.

At this point I think most veteran forum members have come to the realization that Kurt's findings should be taken with a grain of salt at the very least. The trouble is that Kurt repeats his statements in many threads over and over and this causes confusion for new members and spreads misinformation.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 9.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Lumagen, OPPO, & Ethereal Dealer
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3839
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
First off the Spears ands Munsil pattern you are using to show the problem is an Out OF Band pattern . that means it is out of the specs that all encoded video will ever use. That pattern was designed to go past the ability of most video components to see how well they can handle it. So the lumagen handles it really well. If your that picky use the game mode it will do even better.


So real world video will not have that issue. use Toy story, or Moulan rouge where the one guy has a red jacket, if you see jaggies on that edge of his red jacket or any place else in the scene then you can complain.that scene is well known for bad chroma up sampling problems.


Nashou

Exactly. I explained to Kurt many months ago in his G90 thread that the SM chroma burst pattern violates nyquist and that there is not necessarily a correct answer for displaying the test pattern. It is also upsampled chroma resolution from a 4:2:0 BD source. It's similar to converting 720p to 1080p and looking at a burst. There is no right answer on this and some displays may even look close to perfect, but the test pattern is still not being displayed as it is on the source and has no bearing on real world video.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 9.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Lumagen, OPPO, & Ethereal Dealer
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
km987654 wrote:

Is there anyone else with these thoughts on Lumagen. Up till now I have only heard good things about Lumagen of which I have two. I may use them in a very basic way at this time and perhaps have not explored all of the possibilities but I do wonder how someone can come to these conclusions.

One of Kurt's biggest problems is that he will see a test pattern that he has deemed all important and absolute, and then that test patter has a nocebo effect on his perception of the actual video quality. He his a limited understand of digital video signal processing and transmission and he than comes to the conclusion that the hardware he is using does not perform well.

At this point I think most veteran forum members have come to the realization that Kurt's findings should be taken with a grain of salt at the very least. The trouble is that Kurt repeats his statements in many threads over and over and this causes confusion for new members and spreads misinformation.

craigr


Craig i did write you a PM, where i challenge you to do a G90 VS Marquee competition, i would love to include the processors and players in a stunt like that.

Im just waiting for your reply. Thumbs Up
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16165
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Setting the Radiance to Game mode bypasses the chip in question that would scale that pattern, but you will loose some de interlace functions in the process that actually benefits the image. But most new games are progressive scan so that is why it is there and adding so is BD.

Nashou

_________________
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"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Setting the Radiance to Game mode bypasses the chip in question that would scale that pattern, but you will loose some de interlace functions in the process that actually benefits the image. But most new games are progressive scan so that is why it is there and adding so is BD.

Nashou


what happens to the image? do it change your overall gamma or drive/contrast level.?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16165
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Nashou66 wrote:
Setting the Radiance to Game mode bypasses the chip in question that would scale that pattern, but you will loose some de interlace functions in the process that actually benefits the image. But most new games are progressive scan so that is why it is there and adding so is BD.

Nashou


what happens to the image? do it change your overall gamma or drive/contrast level.?


What Probe and software are you using to measure this?

Nashou

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Nashou66 wrote:
Setting the Radiance to Game mode bypasses the chip in question that would scale that pattern, but you will loose some de interlace functions in the process that actually benefits the image. But most new games are progressive scan so that is why it is there and adding so is BD.

Nashou


what happens to the image? do it change your overall gamma or drive/contrast level.?


What Probe and software are you using to measure this?

Nashou


Use whatever you like.. or just use your eyes, and tell me what you see.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16165
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you accurately know what the gamma is at every level with out instrument measurements. Your eyes can deceive you.


And probes can drift or fall out of specs over time.

I ask because those things need a definite number. What one person likes in an image another may not like. So to many here see
that your opinion of the Lumagen is subjective.

Nashou

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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