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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:46 pm    Post subject: FORUM RULES feedback Reply with quote


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Our forum rules are listed here:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5

I would like people to use this thread to comment on and provide feedback on these rules.
What do you like? What would you like changed?

Kal

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Nashou66




Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they changed form before. I never remember seeing starting a controversial topic might be considered trolling.

I don't agree with that one. sorry.

Nashou

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
I think they changed form before. I never remember seeing starting a controversial topic might be considered trolling. I don't agree with that one. sorry.

Thanks for the feedback. I think you may be mis-understanding the rule. It's this one here:

"Trolling. Do not post in order to anger other members or intentionally cause negative reactions. For a given post, this can be a subjective call, but a pattern of such posting or an especially egregious case may get you banned."

Keywords are highlighted. Threads and posts should be started to encourage discussions, not to incite anger or piss people off on purpose.

The rules doesn't say that we can't talk about controversial subjects. We can, in the off-topic forum. People should stop however before posting anything and think to themselves: Am I posting this because I want to really talk about it and learn/discuss, or am I posting just because I want to piss someone off? If posting only to piss off others, don't.

So starting a thread on a controversial subject is fine - it's not automatically considered trolling. It's how it's delivered. That's why it says "subjective".

Does that make sense?

Kal

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mp20748




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:


Does that make sense?

Kal


Yes, this makes a lot of sense and I'm glad you shared it.

It seems to denote exactly what I've been saying.. when someone post a thread or starts a thread that "incite anger or piss people off" rather than for the purpose to encourage discussion. Then based on those rules, it would be Trolling

And how can it be subjective if it has pissed off so many?



"Trolling. Do not post in order to anger other members or intentionally cause negative reactions"


"Threads and posts should be started to encourage discussions, not to incite anger or piss people off on purpose"
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Curt Palme
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for one am completely baffled why this is SUCH a big issue here over the last couple of months. Stay and be nice, or be had or hateful, and leave.

It's that simple.
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Nashou66




Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
I for one am completely baffled why this is SUCH a big issue here over the last couple of months. Stay and be nice, or be had or hateful, and leave.

It's that simple.


Remember this post not long ago.




Curt Palme wrote:
Y'all want medals or a chest to pin them onto? Razz

Despite popularity waning overall, it's still exciting to see the success (and infighting!) of this forum. And to think all started because a fellow Canadian appointed as moderator over at avs turned into an instant douche the second he came on. Smile



That is what Made this forum special. As ugly as it got, we still came back. Forcing us to play nice feels unnatural after having free reign. We , for the most part, try to be respectful and self policed and called out an ******* when needed. We feel we don't need any new mods to help us thank you.

What we left( AVS) because it felt like Nazi Germany or modern Day Iran has come full circle it seems.

Just how I feel.

I'll get over this too just like the name calling from , Drag, Dude, Rocco, Wiggles etc.



Nashou

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Curt Palme
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that, but it's been way out of control over the last couple of months. Not on every thread of course, but the 1/2 dozen or so that are AV related really made it ugly around here. I don't even bother going into political or a lot of the OT threads since I have no idea what I'm talking about. Smile

It's the heated AV discussions. I figured with two antagonists gone (or one antagonist, and another one that can't let stuff go), things would clean up for the most part, but man, people are still bitching and whining.

As I said the other night, as long as everyone is reasonable, you won't even know a mod is here.

There's no question that people have a different persona behind a keyboard. I've been a complete Ahole on the internets (not here, I don't think), and I've met pretty much everyone that's gotten douchey here over the last few months, and they aren't the same in person. It's just time for everyone to mellow out a bit, and be more civil to one another. That's all there's to it.
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El Duderino




Joined: 23 Jan 2011
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Location: Portland, OR


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My comments will only be for the OT forum, as it's the only one I've understood to be unmoderated.

The OT on CP was somewhat unique to me in that it was unmoderated where topics like religion, politics, and race could be discussed. These are by nature, controversial topics. Someones jimmies WILL get rustled openly and frankly discussing them, else they won't be openly and frankly discussed. It will just be a mono echo chamber with no dynamics. I appreciated how it's been handled up to now. You basically told everyone that they're likely going to get offended and pissed off discussing religion, politics, and race, and that when they do, don't come running to a mod. Man up or don't go in. You have to be this tall to ride. etc.

Now I see the desire for a 'report post' type of button that wakes up a mod? That's the last thing I want to see, and it's about 180 from the above sentiments IMO.

I get that Rocco was a special case and a tough nut. I agree that he was over the top and many of us regulars told him so. I think that peer moderation may have actually been working a bit, as he actually acknowledged he was loosing face and he even agreed to try to tone it down. He just didn't follow through very well or fast.

As for 'trolling', I think it near impossible to have threads involving politics, religion, race, etc to ever even be started without it being trolling. It takes a fish to bite for a trawler‎ to hook, and that's often already handled as evidenced by the many threads started with zero replies.

To me it comes down to: Politics, Religion, Race, etc. Can these topics be discussed, debated, argued? If so, then I think the way it was was about the best it could hope to be. Put on your big-boy pants and expect to see some mud and getting your undies in a bunch. I've appreciated that environment here, and would be sad to see that go. I'd vote to draw the line at threats of violence, not some name-calling in the heat of an argument. While incessant name calling gets tedious, it reflects much more poorly on the incessant name caller IMO.
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El Duderino




Joined: 23 Jan 2011
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Location: Portland, OR


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
That is what Made this forum special. As ugly as it got, we still came back. Forcing us to play nice feels unnatural after having free reign. We , for the most part, try to be respectful and self policed and called out an ******* when needed. We feel we don't need any new mods to help us thank you.


+1. With a small edit. Wink
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Nashou66




Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:
My comments will only be for the OT forum, as it's the only one I've understood to be unmoderated.

The OT on CP was somewhat unique to me in that it was unmoderated where topics like religion, politics, and race could be discussed. These are by nature, controversial topics. Someones jimmies WILL get rustled openly and frankly discussing them, else they won't be openly and frankly discussed. It will just be a mono echo chamber with no dynamics. I appreciated how it's been handled up to now. You basically told everyone that they're likely going to get offended and pissed off discussing religion, politics, and race, and that when they do, don't come running to a mod. Man up or don't go in. You have to be this tall to ride. etc.

Now I see the desire for a 'report post' type of button that wakes up a mod? That's the last thing I want to see, and it's about 180 from the above sentiments IMO.

I get that Rocco was a special case and a tough nut. I agree that he was over the top and many of us regulars told him so. I think that peer moderation may have actually been working a bit, as he actually acknowledged he was loosing face and he even agreed to try to tone it down. He just didn't follow through very well or fast.

As for 'trolling', I think it near impossible to have threads involving politics, religion, race, etc to ever even be started without it being trolling. It takes a fish to bite for a trawler‎ to hook, and that's often already handled as evidenced by the many threads started with zero replies.

To me it comes down to: Politics, Religion, Race, etc. Can these topics be discussed, debated, argued? If so, then I think the way it was was about the best it could hope to be. Put on your big-boy pants and expect to see some mud and getting your undies in a bunch. I've appreciated that environment here, and would be sad to see that go. I'd vote to draw the line at threats of violence, not some name-calling in the heat of an argument. While incessant name calling gets tedious, it reflects much more poorly on the incessant name caller IMO.


Yep, and I understand what Curt said about the idiotic Eisemann thread, But when it gets nasty maybe move it to the OT forum so non paying members can not see it as easily. I would be all for a Mod doing that.

nashou

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Nashou66




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I agree with your edit too Wink

Nashou

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Nashou66




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude I found a avatar for you. Similar to mine.




Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:
My comments will only be for the OT forum, as it's the only one I've understood to be unmoderated.

The overall forum rules (no name calling, bickering, etc.) has always applied to all sub-forums. All of the sub-forums were somewhat unmoderated and mods did next to nothing.

Quote:
The OT on CP was somewhat unique to me in that it was unmoderated where topics like religion, politics, and race could be discussed. These are by nature, controversial topics. Someones jimmies WILL get rustled openly and frankly discussing them, else they won't be openly and frankly discussed. It will just be a mono echo chamber with no dynamics. I appreciated how it's been handled up to now. You basically told everyone that they're likely going to get offended and pissed off discussing religion, politics, and race, and that when they do, don't come running to a mod. Man up or don't go in. You have to be this tall to ride. etc.

That's fine, but people need to do it without making it personal, without name calling and insulting the person posting.

Quote:
To me it comes down to: Politics, Religion, Race, etc. Can these topics be discussed, debated, argued? If so, then I think the way it was was about the best it could hope to be. Put on your big-boy pants and expect to see some mud and getting your undies in a bunch. I've appreciated that environment here, and would be sad to see that go. I'd vote to draw the line at threats of violence, not some name-calling in the heat of an argument. While incessant name calling gets tedious, it reflects much more poorly on the incessant name caller IMO.

We don't want to see discussion of controversial topics go away, we just want to see people treat others with respect (ie: follow the rules).

There are other forums that have debate sub-forums were controversial topics are discussed and they work. People can talk about these subjects but if you start to insult the person making the comments, you're out.

For example, see the "debate forum" here: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum.php
It's their "Forum for heated topics like politics, Government, religion, philosophy and the like." and they say "READ THE RULES! NSFW - THICK SKIN A MUST!"

Their debate sub-forum rules state:

Quote:
- Remain Civil.
- Do not resort to bickering, name calling or trolling (Just attempting to provoke other members.)
- Do not let feelings and discussions leave this sub-forum.

If you disobey these simple rules your access to this forum will be removed.

Please start threads that are heated topics in this forum and this forum only.


That's exactly what we'd like to see here in our forum.

Kal

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El Duderino




Joined: 23 Jan 2011
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Dude I found a avatar for you. Similar to mine.


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El Duderino




Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4492
Location: Portland, OR


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
The overall forum rules (no name calling, bickering, etc.) has always applied to all sub-forums.

Expecting no bickering or name calling with discussions and arguments on politics, religion, race, etc is unrealistic, and trying to moderate to be such will effectively stifle it IMO.

kal wrote:
All of the sub-forums were somewhat unmoderated and mods did next to nothing.

While that may be true in practice, I don't think that's how it was specifically expressed. The OT forum seems to be the only one that expressly states "unmoderated"? I remember when I first read "Politics, religion, and unmoderated". I thought that HAD to be an interesting environment. Sure enough, it pretty much was. Kudos for that. I'll miss it if it goes.

kal wrote:
There are other forums that have debate sub-forums were controversial topics are discussed and they work.
I didn't think this OT forum was busted much. I think it worked better than most. I hope fixing it doesn't break it.

kal wrote:
That's fine, but people need to do it without making it personal, without name calling and insulting the person posting.


I get that. Challenge the post, not the poster. I pretty much try to, I think most of us regulars try to. I also think that many of us regulars have a sense of intimacy or family too, and after many years, and many arguments, it can appear snarky, especially to an outsider. I can call my wife a bitch on occasion, and so can her sister, but a stranger better not. They've not earned the right.

For instance, I think there is a bit of familiarity between Ron and myself. We've argued a lot here for years, I can say things to him, or even call him some names, and we can both handle it without running to a mod. I don't need to pussy-foot with him, and I respect him for that. I think he'd respect me less if I did pussy-foot him.


kal wrote:
THICK SKIN A MUST!

I think this is an excellent point wrt the OT forum. If we all had thick skin, then that's that. Eh? Sticks-n-stones. I wonder if the problem with Rocco was as much thin-skin as anything. I don't think Ron ever 'tattled', as he had thick enough skin and knew that Rocco was just torpedoing his own ship. He fed Rocco the rope.
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Nashou66




Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

100% what Dude said.

I'll also add this is the culture of the world lately( PC ), too many woosies not able to handle adversity, criticism or just the plain truth. Stop being so damn uptight people!!!

Nashou

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mp20748




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:

For instance, I think there is a bit of familiarity between Ron and myself. We've argued a lot here for years, I can say things to him, or even call him some names, and we can both handle it without running to a mod. I don't need to pussy-foot with him, and I respect him for that. I think he'd respect me less if I did pussy-foot him


Likewise, the same happens between him and I. And I would not have a problem with anyone expressing their like or dislike with me on or off the forum. However, I see a lot of what Ron does as Trolling to stir up strife using race issues to set the format. I also think it is wrong whenever anyone does anything Knowing it could cause a problem with a particular group, race or individual. That is a lot different from us starting out in a healthy discussion and it inadvertently getting out of control, to someone setting out to bait and trap with the intent to stir confusion and discord (trolling).


And I don't recall ever pressing the mod button on this forum (and only a few times on AVS to report spammers). Don't even know where it is.

I'll either take it on the chin, fight back or let it go. And that seems to be the best way to deal with life to me.


I see things this way. If I set out knowing that what I'm about to do will cause someone a problem. it would be wrong for me to do so. And this is something at times I've been guilty of, and that is why I like what Kal had to say about this, because it is going to require that we look at ourselves on both ends of the stick, and be willing to make some changes in ourselves rather than put expectations on others to change, because there is never a valid justification to needlessly offend anyone.


So if in keeping calm and peace on the forum also means that one should be able to say and do whatever to anyone, because the fault then lies on the offended having or needing "thick skin" then not much will be accomplished. And this sounds too much like bullying to me.
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El Duderino




Joined: 23 Jan 2011
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Location: Portland, OR


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Hi everyone,

Generally speaking, there are no rules in the Off-Topic forum! This forum is an open forum. Feel free to talk about anything you like (religion/politics/etc). Please keep these discussions in the "Off-topic" forum.

The Off-Topic forum is an unmoderated forum. Please don't ask us to remove posts or moderate if someone has a opinion or belief that differs from your own. If you don't like someone's opinions or beliefs, don't visit the Off-Topic forum. The only posts that will be removed are obvious SPAM-type posts or discussions on illegal activities.

The Off-Topic forum is not seen by anonymous users or search engines. What you post here is only seen by logged in users. Anonymous visitors cannot view this forum.

Thank you!

Kal


The above is from the very first sticky post in the OT Forum. You start off by saying that there generally are no rules in OT, and that no one should ask for posts to be removed or for any moderation to be done?
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:
kal wrote:
The overall forum rules (no name calling, bickering, etc.) has always applied to all sub-forums.

Expecting no bickering or name calling with discussions and arguments on politics, religion, race, etc is unrealistic, and trying to moderate to be such will effectively stifle it IMO.

I wonder what why other forums are able to do it then. It's odd. Like I mentioned above, they have a "debate" forum over at HomeBrewTalk.com that is specifically for such controversial subjects but you still have to be nice to others (don't directly insult someone).

If we truly think that it's impossible for people here to be civil when discussing controversial subjects, maybe we should split the OT forum in two:

1. A "debate" forum where all controversial subjects have to be posted such as political, religious, and social issues. People can scream/bitch/insult each other as much as they like. It's the no rules forum. While I'd prefer it to be an invite only forum we'd probably limit it to logged in only users similar to the OT forum today. This way visitors and Google don't search it. (Invite only forums require me to manually add them to a special group - I don't want that extra work).

2. An OT forum where the regular forum rules must be followed. Everyone logged in is allowed access, or if we can clean it up, we could even open it to Visitors/Google searches like the rest of the sub-forums today. Problem is that it's completely polluted from years of bitching/screaming/insults/trolling so it's doubtful anyone has the time to clean it up given that there are probably 1000's of thread that would need to be read and moved to the "debate" forum.


One of the problem today is that someone that just wants to have some OT discussions without yelling and screaming, can't.

The flip side to the suggestion above too is that we won't have any place to have civil discussions on controversial subjects. But if people really can't be civil here while discussing controversial stuff, maybe splitting is the right idea.

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Duderino wrote:
The above is from the very first sticky post in the OT Forum. You start off by saying that there generally are no rules in OT, and that no one should ask for posts to be removed or for any moderation to be done?

Good catch. That was written quite some time ago and it never matched the main forum rules. I've updated it to match the main forum rules.

If/when we decide what makes the most sense, we may need to change it again.

I still think there's a way for adults to have good, sometimes even heated discussions on any subject without resorting to personally calling people names and directly insulting people. At least that's the hope.

Kal

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