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What are these like?

 
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:04 am    Post subject: What are these like? Reply with quote


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The Cineversum Blackwing 2...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cinerversum-Barco-Blackwing-MK-2011-1080P-2D-Full-3d-Projector-/181657036668?pt=AU_HomeEnt_Projectors&hash=item2a4b9a677c

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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Blackwing is a JVC clone, ala Barco or NEC sold by Runco (with black paint). At least Cineversum put "batwings" on it. Wink Wolf also sold JVC clones, and I think one other.

That should be an RS55 clone since he says it was $14,000 MSRP (the model "Two). The "One" was an RS45, and the "Three" an RS65. At this point, the pricing isn't too far off considering it comes with glasses and a new lamp.

I'd assume it should eShift in it unless they disabled it for the Cineversum version (for some reason).

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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: What are these like? Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
The Cineversum Blackwing 2...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cinerversum-Barco-Blackwing-MK-2011-1080P-2D-Full-3d-Projector-/181657036668?pt=AU_HomeEnt_Projectors&hash=item2a4b9a677c


It's a clone of the JVC RS50, which was first released back in the end of 2010. I'm not sure if it shares the RS40/50/60's well documented early lamp failure problems, but I don't see why it wouldn't since - as far as anyone can tell - it's the exact same guts in a different looking chassis.

$3400 for an RS50 is way, way too high (at least in the US market) - that much money would get you into a far nicer and newer JVC.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: What are these like? Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
$3400 for an RS50 is way, way too high (at least in the US market) - that much money would get you into a far nicer and newer JVC.

That's 3400 AUD, which should be like $2600 USD. So, yes - it's a little pricey, but not that far out of the box considering new lamp and four pairs of glasses. Probably should be more like $2000 US.

Hard to compare US and AUS pricing, I think. My understanding is that AUS pricing is inflated compared to US, so the deals that we enjoy here are relatively unobtainable down under.

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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah im not going to buy it, certainly not for that price, but it seemed rather interesting, ive not seen one here before.

Australian prices are high compared to yours in regards to newer digital machines, but the arse has completely fallen out of 9" CRTs here and they dont pull much money at all.

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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: What are these like? Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
$3400 for an RS50 is way, way too high (at least in the US market) - that much money would get you into a far nicer and newer JVC.

That's 3400 AUD, which should be like $2600 USD. So, yes - it's a little pricey, but not that far out of the box considering new lamp and four pairs of glasses. Probably should be more like $2000 US.

Hard to compare US and AUS pricing, I think. My understanding is that AUS pricing is inflated compared to US, so the deals that we enjoy here are relatively unobtainable down under.

SC


No, even $2600 for a RS50 is way too high. The prices on them plummeted after the lamp issues became well known. I was lucky to get out from under mine early and jump up to an RS55 without losing too much money. That thing is priced the way it is because it's sold by a boutique company that re-badges JVCs, puts them in a fancy case, and doubles or triples the price. The owner paid out the nose, so the perceived resale value on his end is probably much higher than it should be. One can easily do much, much better. And if you were really set on an RS50 for some odd reason, you could get into one for a hell of a lot less.

**Edit: The RS50 had numerous issues that were never addressed by JVC. They include:

1. Relatively low lumen output compared to the RS40 and newer models.
2. Internal offgassing fogging up the diffuser plate, cutting lumens even further. This requires regular cleaning.
3. Severely flawed on-board gamma and CMS controls. The gamma controls interact with one another so much that they're almost unusable without an incredible amount of patience.
4. Getting the extra 20K:1 contrast that's advertised over the RS40 requires the iris to be closed down significantly, cutting light output. This may or may not be an issue if you have a sufficiently small screen.

I stepped from an RS35 - which was one of the best consumer projectors JVC has ever made - to an RS50, and inherited a lot of problems that didn't exist in the 35. The 35 had better panel alignment, better light output, a CMS that worked exceptionally well, and was able to achieve its spec'd CR without having to sacrifice significant amounts of light. If I were in the market for a JVC, I'd avoid the RS50/RS60 unless I had an external CMS and the thing were being given to me for free.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: What are these like? Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:


1. Relatively low lumen output compared to the RS40 and newer models.

Was this because of the iris? The 40, 50 and 60 use the same lamp, correct?


2. Internal offgassing fogging up the diffuser plate, cutting lumens even further. This requires regular cleaning.

Did this also include the 40? Funny, I see this on the HD350 and the 45 I have here now.


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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: What are these like? Reply with quote

macgyver655 wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
1. Relatively low lumen output compared to the RS40 and newer models.


Was this because of the iris? The 40, 50 and 60 use the same lamp, correct?


My understanding was that this was due to the design of the light path, not because of the user-adjustable iris. Although clamping the manual iris down to achieve the spec'd max contrast numbers for the 50 did significantly cut light output. And yes, all three projectors - as well as the RS45, RS55, and RS65 - use the same lamp. However bear in mind there are 3 versions of that lamp, and you want the latest with the metal "fin" on the front. That seems to have solved most of the lamp reliability issues for those generations.


macgyver655 wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
2. Internal offgassing fogging up the diffuser plate, cutting lumens even further. This requires regular cleaning.


Did this also include the 40? Funny, I see this on the HD350 and the 45 I have here now.


I believe it was for all of the JVC's in that generation only - so yes, it would include the RS40. It has not been widely reported in previous or subsequent generations. Some long-time RS45 users tried cleaning the diffuser plate and said that no fogging residue was present as was on the 40/50/60. However if you're seeing it, it's been reported that cleaning that surface yields a significant boost in lumen output.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: What are these like? Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
macgyver655 wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
1. Relatively low lumen output compared to the RS40 and newer models.


Was this because of the iris? The 40, 50 and 60 use the same lamp, correct?


My understanding was that this was due to the design of the light path, not because of the user-adjustable iris.




macgyver655 wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
2. Internal offgassing fogging up the diffuser plate, cutting lumens even further. This requires regular cleaning.


Did this also include the 40? Funny, I see this on the HD350 and the 45 I have here now.


I believe it was for all of the JVC's in that generation only - so yes, it would include the RS40. It has not been widely reported in previous or subsequent generations. Some long-time RS45 users tried cleaning the diffuser plate and said that no fogging residue was present as was on the 40/50/60. However if you're seeing it, it's been reported that cleaning that surface yields a significant boost in lumen output.


Interesting. I only say the iris because according to the service manual the only difference I see in the light engine is the addition of the iris module. Otherwise, all 3 engines appear to be the same. Naturally the addition of the CMS board is a difference but would that really make any difference in the light output? See image below.

As to the fogging, maybe it was much worse in the x0 line then what I am seeing in these. These were not real thick. Just a light coating.


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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree its too dear, i can buy a new JVC for about 8 grand. But im not about to do that either Wink
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're asking what in those diagrams differentiates an RS40, an RS50, and RS60 from one another (aside fr the obvious CMS processing and user-adjustable iris), I'd say it's stuff that's not depicted such as graded chips, wire grid polarizers, color filters, etc. Unless you're looking to use RS50/60 parts to turn an RS40 into something else, I'd say it's largely irrelevant since the differences I listed are easily measurable and have already been documented by numerous well-respected reviewers.

Because the RS40 seemed to be the most well liked and best performing of the bunch overall, I'd be happy to have one over a 50 or 60.

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HogPilot wrote:
If you're asking what in those diagrams differentiates an RS40, an RS50, and RS60 from one another (aside fr the obvious CMS processing and user-adjustable iris), I'd say it's stuff that's not depicted such as graded chips, wire grid polarizers, color filters, etc. Unless you're looking to use RS50/60 parts to turn an RS40 into something else, I'd say it's largely irrelevant since the differences I listed are easily measurable and have already been documented by numerous well-respected reviewers.

Because the RS40 seemed to be the most well liked and best performing of the bunch overall, I'd be happy to have one over a 50 or 60.


I was not saying that I disagreed with you on the light output of the 40 vs the 50 or 60. What I was asking was if you thought the iris is what was causing the difference, because, other then the iris and CMS they are virtually identical, which is why I posted the images to indicate.

Now if you think it is because of the stuff you indicate in this post can you refer me to where this is indicated because I would like to read it. That's all. Not disagreeing.
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macgyver655 wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
If you're asking what in those diagrams differentiates an RS40, an RS50, and RS60 from one another (aside fr the obvious CMS processing and user-adjustable iris), I'd say it's stuff that's not depicted such as graded chips, wire grid polarizers, color filters, etc. Unless you're looking to use RS50/60 parts to turn an RS40 into something else, I'd say it's largely irrelevant since the differences I listed are easily measurable and have already been documented by numerous well-respected reviewers.

Because the RS40 seemed to be the most well liked and best performing of the bunch overall, I'd be happy to have one over a 50 or 60.


I was not saying that I disagreed with you on the light output of the 40 vs the 50 or 60. What I was asking was if you thought the iris is what was causing the difference, because, other then the iris and CMS they are virtually identical, which is why I posted the images to indicate.

Now if you think it is because of the stuff you indicate in this post can you refer me to where this is indicated because I would like to read it. That's all. Not disagreeing.


It's mostly from having read the RS40 and RS50 threads on AVS while (and after) I owned the RS50 for a year. The threads are both ridiculously long, and unfortunately there's a pretty low signal/noise ratio, but as a general rule there's probably more useful stuff in the second half of the threads than in the first:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1296327-official-jvc-rs40-x3-owners-thread.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1294762-official-jvc-rs-50-owner-s-thread.html

I believe the cine4home review indicated that different color filters were used in the RS50/60 over the RS40, but I'm having trouble digging up that review. It doesn't help that the website is in German and has no search function Smile

I know this seems like a vague answer, but the verification is definitely there if you're bored and have free time to sift through hundreds of pages of posts.

FWIW, it looks like the light engine in your first diagram only has a couple parts listed, even in the expanded view. I don't see specific parts for the internals, and that's where all of your difference between units will be found in terms of performance.

***Edit: Here's the translation link to the cine4home comparison review: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Ftests%2Fprojektoren%2FX-Serie%2FVergleichsspecial.htm&edit-text=&act=url

Some of the translations get pretty garbled, but there's enough there for you to see where they talk about the difference in graded wire grid polarizers/DILA chips, the different color filters, and the extra, fixed iris that's added in the light path for the RS50/60. Note that this is not the same iris as the user-adjustable iris, which is found in all three models.

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ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They made a new bulb for the RS50 series, the same as they used in the RS55 series.
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HogPilot



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383


TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD


PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
They made a new bulb for the RS50 series, the same as they used in the RS55 series.


Already covered:

HogPilot wrote:
And yes, all three projectors - as well as the RS45, RS55, and RS65 - use the same lamp. However bear in mind there are 3 versions of that lamp, and you want the latest with the metal "fin" on the front. That seems to have solved most of the lamp reliability issues for those generations.

_________________
ecrabb wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC
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