CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[jeffslife]

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It sounds very interesting, I can see how overhead speakers would give that extra immersion effect and I think I would like it. I already have speakers that would do a fine job on the ceiling and it wouldn't be a big deal installing them in my basement at all. I have been looking into ATMOS receivers and I just cant justify 1200 bucks for one that will still give me the outputs to run my separate amps. I love my Yamaha's and wont give that up, plus the ability to fine tune every single channel using separates is just too nice to let go. I haven't had my Integra 9.9 that long but even with its faults I really like it, not to mention I got it free. I would really like to experience it myself but am willing to take the word of anyone here who has. Is it all they say ? There is no theatre around here that uses ATMOS. I am not seeing anything that's just a pre amp with ATMOS though, and believe if I do find one it would probably be cost prohibited for me at least. Too bad there's not a work around for this that doesn't cost a bunch of money. If anyone has heard ATMOS in a theatre please let me know what you thought. Thanks. Jeff

[ecrabb]

Atmos is pretty impressive, Jeff. I was impressed enough with the Dolby demo at CEDIA, and the other couple of times I've heard it that I'm definitely going to put in ceiling speakers in my next build.

There are several preamps with Atmos, including (relatively) affordable options from Onkyo/Integra and Marantz. But, they're probably still way more money than you'll want to spend. It's brand new, so it's mostly in the higher-end products right now. Wait a year, and it'll start filtering down into the less expensive receivers.

No surprise you can't find an Atmos-equipped theater near you. I'm in the Salt Lake City metro area - more than a million people - and there's only one Atmos theater here.

Are there any Best Buy Magnolia stores near you? The Magnolia rooms have a couple of Atmos-equipped receivers, and they're demoing them with some Definitive Tech speakers with Def Tech Atmos "toppers" that bounce the height effects off the ceiling at you. It's really impressive. Not something you can generally do in a dedicated room, but it'll absolutely give you an idea what Atmos sounds like.

SC

[jeffslife]

I am not sure if bouncing off the ceiling in my basement would work well. I don't really have a ceiling per se. I was planning on mounting the speakers on the "ceiling". Do they use 4 speakers ? That was the way I understood it but when I look at the back of the ATMOS receivers it appears that there is only outputs for 2 speakers. It confused me. P.S Thanks.

[ecrabb]

No, I wasn't suggesting you use the bounce model; you're right that it wouldn't work well with your unfinished ceiling. I just mentioned as something you might be able to go hear yourself at some point if there was a Best Buy Magnolia store somewhere you get occasionally.

Just like you can do 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1, there are different flavors of Atmos. Some of the lower-end receivers are 7.1.2 receivers, meaning they can do 7.1, plus two Atmos channels (which by the way, is probably fine if you only have one row of seating). The higher-end models like the Marantz AV7702 I'm considering and a couple of Onkyo-Integra and Denon models are 7.2.4, meaning 7 main and surround channels, two sub outputs, plus four height channels. The outputs are usually labeled "height 1" and "height 2". Generally, the 7.1.2 models are receivers and living-room-oriented, while the 7.2.4 models are receivers and pre-pros and are a little more dedicated/home theater oriented.

Look over this doc - it'll bring you up to speed the different options, layouts, nomenclature, etc.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-for-the-home-theater.pdf

Cheers,
SC

[jeffslife]

Thanks Steve, That really helped.

[ecrabb]

I sat in on a 1-hour webinar on Atmos, hosted by Residential Systems and Pioneer yesterday. Most of it I knew already - I was sitting in hoping to win the package they were giving away for attending the presentation. The presenters were Jeremy Glowacki from Resi Sys, Craig Eggers the director of home theater for Dolby, and Andrew Jones the speaker designer representing Pioneer.

Anyway, if anybody wants to view the webinar, I'd be happy to give you the URL and my email address. There are some nice info resources that you can download from within the presentation, too.

My phone rang once last night, and it was actually Residentialy Systems' number in New York - I got all excited that I'd won the package they were giving away. No followup though, so that was a cruel little bummer.

Cheers,
SC

[jeffslife]

So what do you think ? Is it worth it ?

[HK-Steve]

I am asking the same question, is it worth it??

My Tag McLaren is having issues, need to replace, with what is the question,
To Atmos or Not to Atmos!!!!!!

That is the question...........

[Spanky Ham]

If you had won the system, then you would have had to build a theater.


Personally, I thought it was impressive. I listened to multiple booths at Cedia and thought it gave a better sense of realism. I almost felt like Enrique Inglesias was serenading me. Inside joke, as that was the most played demo clip at Cedia with the tag line of "Look what Atmos can do for music!"

Pioneer's demo was initially impressive until Kris Deering, Steve, Mike Garrett rained on parade. I thought the Oblivion clip was really immersive. When a waterfall fell over the ship, it sounded like the water started from the ceiling and went to the floor. Later the other guys told me they thought Pioneer may have been messing with the regular 5.1 clip to make the Atmos version sound better.

Is it worth it? That is a personal opinion. If you are starting from scratch or shopping for new equipment right now and you are spending in the Atmos territory, then I would say go ahead and get it. If you are happy with your system now and are intrigued by Atmos, then I would say wait. In a year or two, Atmos will be fleshed out and it will be in just about every receiver or pre/pro.

As for the speakers, I think I liked the Atmos enabled speakers better than the ceiling, but that was still hard to quantify. If you can do ceiling speakers, then I think that might be the less expensive route to go. According to Dolby, the ceiling speakers only have to go from 120 hz on up. I think DIYsoundgroup's Volt speakers will be perfect for this.

[jeffslife]

120 hz and up ? So bookshelfs would work fine ? Are they not channeling anything under 120hz to the ceiling speakers ?

[Spanky Ham]

I am not sure, as I haven't looked at it lately.

[ecrabb]

I believe they're just like mains and surrounds in a traditional DD or DTS soundtrack. In other words, they're full-range channels, so the mixer can use the channels (or in this case "audio objects") however they please. In the webinar, they said they recommend if you're using separate speakers (as opposed to Atoms approved models, i.e. "toppers"), they recommend a speaker that's flat down to about 60hz.

I demoed the (relatively) inexpensive setup they had in the Magnolia demo room, and it was very impressive. Not exactly idea environment and not that expensive of a system, and it was some of the best surround I've heard. Not best overall sound by any means, but definitely really, really good surround.

I'm really leaning toward a 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling in my next room.

SC

[jeffslife]

Steve, So do you think the ceiling speakers should be the same speakers that you are using for surround then ? I have all my speakers the same and I gotta say it does make a difference, to me at least. When it comes to audio its so subjective so really who can say, But I like to hear peoples opinions.

[ecrabb]

Not necessarily the identical speaker as the surrounds - that may not be practical. But, ideally, the Atmos speakers should be timbre-matched to the rest of the system - at the very least matching the surrounds, but ideally the Atmos speakers, surrounds, and mains are all voiced similarly so they sound the same or similar. You just don't want dissimilar-sounding speakers, since as the objects pan across the sound field, the sound will change and it will break what can be a very convincing effect.

After hearing it a couple of times now, I'm as excited about Atmos as I was about the transition from matrix surround to discrete. I hate the pain in the ass that it creates to add ceiling speakers (especially speakers that match the surrounds), but I think it will be worth it in the long run. Since you have an unfinished ceiling, you're golden. Just add a couple pairs of surrounds up between the joists and point them down, maybe angled in toward the seating a little, add a couple more amps, and you're good to go.

I was really blow away by just how darn convincing the Atmos-enabled "toppers" were. It's not really that practical for a dedicated theater - especially with AT screens and false walls and such... But, for mixed-use or "living room" type installs, It's pretty damn impressive.

Cheers,
SC

[HighDefMike]

Hi guyz. As someone that has taken the DolbyAtmos@Home Plunge, I'll share my own personal feelings 'bout it.
I don't sign IN (or post much); but I DO visit here and AVSFORM @ least once most days to see what everyone is talking 'bout.
I won't be on long tonight, but I can add some fuel for thought to those thinking of going with Atmos @ home.

Beginning of October, I purchased the Pioneer Elite SC-85, 4 of the Andrew Jones/Pioneer Elite bookshelf "Atmos-Enabled" loudspeakers (SP-EBS73), and the 1 Pioneer Elite Andrew Jones Center Channel (SP-EC73).

I also acquired 2 Onkyo M-5010 Power Amps for the "upward firing" drivers on the front and rear speakers (since Onkyo discontinued their M285 power amps already in use in my system for all the main channels).

The Andrew Jones speakers replaced all 5 of my DefTech models: 4x ProMonitor 800s, and 1 ProCinema 1000 Ctr Channel.

I already had 3 subs in the room (an older Velodyne SPL 1200, with an accompanying SMS-1 sub eq module) and 2 smaller Velodyne SPL 600s (with buil-in eq. processing). Not that it matters in this thread, but I have a M8500, with Joust mods, color-corrected lenses, ISF-calibrated on an 80" wide screen, with a Darbee Darblet video enhancer.

I live approx. 30 miles from Tampa Bay, and the nearest Dolby Atmos Theater is 15 miles farther away than that(!) in Pinellas Park/Clearwater/St.Pete area. I've only seen 1 Dolby Atmos movie in that theater: The Maze Runner. Wanted to see/experience Dawn Of The Planet of the Apes there, but they rotate the movies IN/OUT of the theater each week (whether the replacement is Dolby Atmos or not!), so I missed it.

Maze Runner was amazing in Dolby Atmos; there were times/sequences in the movie where it sounded/felt like the sound/object was 2 feet behind my head, @the 4-o-clock position. But I BET it could've been much better; knowing how theaters don't "tweak/adjust/optimize" picture even, let alone sound to the degree that they could. So I decided the BEST WAY for me to see what DA could Really do, would be to set it up & experience in my own HT.

Yes, it's a little expensive now, with the high end focus right now, but I feel it's worth it.
And it's not so much the "few" fly over/pans that get my attention, it's the "you're in the middle" of what's happening on screen immersive feeling; that plus the detail and clarity of the sounds, music, entire soundtrack. And the "Dolby Surround Upmixer" (which takes legacy, channel based soundtracks...2-ch, 5.1, 7.1 etc.,....and pseudo-ATMOSizes it) is icy on the cake. It's incredible, but the effect varies from title to title/mix-to-mix. I've only had time to make special note of a few titles that I went OMG(!), when I heard the Dolby Surround Upmixer during several sequences: Matrix Revolutions and G.I.Joe: Retaliation.

Transformers on Blu-ray is jaw dropping in Dolby Atmos. Again, not so much the few things that "fly over", but YOU ARE THERE. There are sequences where (& I'm sure it's dependent upon Your Ears, Where You Are Sitting, etc.,) you can discern distinct sounds between you and the front speakers, or rear speakers....@ head level, and above (obviously). And again, the music on the soundtrack takes a 3 jump as well. I like it.

I've gotta go, but I've spent the last few weeks attempting to get the Dolby Atmos Trailers (included on the CEDIA Dolby Atmos Demo Blu-ray Disc, which isn't available to the general public, but a gentlemen has made them available for downloading from http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/high-definition-trailers.php) to PLAY on my system.

I don't have, not did I want to buy an OPPO for this(lol), but I've found out (you guys probably already knew this), the WDTV Media Player (in most of its forms..HUB, etc.,) will pass the Dolby Truehd + Atmos metadata ON TO your DA AVR/processor in bitstream via HDMI from an external drive containing these .M2TS files....not JUST the video...which is all I was getting from several blu-ray player models I tried. I heard the PS3 will do so as well, but I can't confirm that.

I should be receiving Expendables 3 (if it's actually released with Dolby Atmos on Blu!) this week.

To put this all in perspective, anyone here remember when AC-3 was added to Laserdisc, and there were very few theaters equipped to show Dolby Digital? I remember "hot debates" amongst audio/videophiles that the 384kb/s that Dolby planned on using on Laserdisc could not possibly sound good @ all. Well, I had not even seen a commercial movie with Dolby Digital, and I happened upon a now-close/dedicated home theater dealer, who had STAR TREK: GENERATIONS on Laser, hokked up to a AC-3 Processor in a demo room. I could not believe what I heard, and I was thinking, "what are they arguing 'bout?! 384kb/s sounds fantastic to me!" Needless to say, I quickly sought after getting AC-3 into my HT...and it cost me (I bought the Pioneer Elite SP99D pre-pro, @like 1299, because it was the lowest-priced pre-pro that would process the RF-encoded AC-3 signal on Lasredisc). But I didn't and don't regret that decision to this day. I feel the same way bout Dolby Atmos. Just want them to release more blu-rays/software...especially if the movie was released with Dolby Atmos in the cinema..e.g., Maze Runner, Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, etc.,but in the meantime I have enough legacy and a few DA things to play with

Hope this helps someone.
Mike

[jeffslife]

It helped me ! Thank you !

[ecrabb]

Nice post, Mike. Your feelings about Atmos being a big deal like AC3 was when it arrived are very similar to my own.

Here's another article from John Sciacca. He's a CEDIA installer that also feels like it's a pretty big deal. It's written for a professional audience, but it I think it's pretty on-point even for us enthusiasts because it's about the movie-watching experience. Here's how he wraps up:

[HD-DAVE]

Good time to revive this thread...I've been wanting to add the height / overhead surround element to my home theater that would take it to a new level, and never could in my old house because my ceiling was very low, and ProLogic IIz never seemed legit to me. So i had to forget about it and ignored the market...

Fast forward - just moved to a new house, gotta big living room with high ceiling (vaulted). YAY! So now i'm not just "looking into" ATMOS but I'm taking the plunge. I have one of the new Yamaha Aventage models (RX-A2050 9.2 chan with ATMOS/DTS:X) on pre-order. The wait a month for the thing to arrive will give me plenty of time to sort out the rest of the install re cabling/placement for 11 speakers plus sub / amp. I will end up with a 5.1.4 system. No "surround back" speakers , but the ATMOS and Yamaha's processing will completely compensate for that from what i understand.

Reviews of the Yam first gen ATMOS capable models were excellent, but it would be good to hear from a forum member if someone has one...I saw a older thread where someone mentioned they have the Pioneer SC-85, but does anyone here have one of the Yamaha AVRs ? ( the current models originally did not support ATMOS but a late fall firmware update rolled that in).

I'd also be interested in hearing what people are going with for height channel speakers ... does it make a huge difference whether one uses in-wall / flush mount versus small speakers on brackets ?

Cheers,
Dave

[Spanky Ham]

I think the best route for ceiling speakers would be coax. They don't have to be big, as I believe the cutoff is 125hz.

[HD-DAVE]

Hmmm... i am not so sure about the bass response criteria.... from what i read on the Dolby site for Atmos the overhead speakers are recommended to be full range.

From the April 2015 Atmos setup guide:

"Bass management settings should also be set correctly to correspond to the speaker
capabilities in the system.
Note: A Dolby Atmos playback system may consist of dedicated overhead speakers,
Dolby Atmos enabled speakers, or a combination. Be sure to keep in mind the low
frequency extension of each speaker in the layout when calibrating and setting up
bass management"

"Overhead Speakers
Overhead sound is a vital part of the Dolby Atmos experience. There are a variety of
options for adding this capability to a room.
One solution is to install speakers overhead. Most high-power, full-frequency
conventional overhead speakers with wide dispersion characteristics will work in a
Dolby Atmos home theater."

It makes sense given the height channels contribute some wide range sounds like helicopters, overhead explosions or things raining down heavily in a typical "disaster or adventure" movie scene. If the cut off was 125 hz that downward wash of sound would lose some impact.