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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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 Link Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Posted is two shots directly (camera pointed in lens) into the RED CRT. The last shot shows what I'm putting into it.
1920X1440 75hz - 297Mhz
It looks much better looking directly into the CRT
Corner Shot into the CRT
Center of the pattern
Scan rate and what's on the display of my pattern generator
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Mike, those screenshots looking good indeed. I actually appreciate your achievments in the Marquee bandwidth extension. And I have no means to compete your work -in any financial manner at least 
Nash, you'd laugh if you'd know how I made the bench power supply for the XG boards (+/-12V, +110V, -75V): with two transformers with a total of 6 secondary windings wired in different ways, the second transformer was actually driven from the first transformer's secondary winding, that did the +110V.
Now I do a power supply that is doing the +/-85v from the +110V, the rest is already there in the XG and also readily made in the bench test supply. The plan is already done for it, it will be an isolated, quasy resonant switching psu, based on a STRF6676 controller, I just have to build and see if it works
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Mike, those screenshots looking good indeed. I actually appreciate your achievments in the Marquee bandwidth extension. And I have no means to compete your work -in any financial manner at least |
Yes, very costly over these years to make happen, but it has also been an hobby.
The last work has not been tested in full operation (RGB), because I've damaged my Blue C element, and should have the replacement in later today to go further.
As you mentioned earlier, there is a difference between the Test Patterns and Scope evaluations. Both have their merits, and both should be used. However, the SMPTE pattern that we display a lot truly is a good final test. It's a simple pattern, that over time you get to learn a lot about. For instance, and with all my previous posting of it. The one I posted in this thread is the first showing full resolve of that posted resolution. But in order to get there, you'll also need to include the scope, because you have to look at speed, rise/fall and make sure the video chain is clean enough to handle that finer bandwidth performance. The scope can say yes, but there are other things that will prevent you from seeing it on the actual screen. And that's why you'll see most video chips later started showing the noise level in the specs.
When they manufactured the projectors, the scope told them one thing. But we know it's a different experience on screen. And that's because they did not include the proper test pattern as a rule. The SMPTE pattern when you get intimate with it will also show you linearity, black reference, speed, and noise. And there's still a few other things it gives you a window into.
It took me years, and I also have to say that Scott (VDC) sent me something a week or so ago that really helped me take things to the next level. Before this, I depended more on the pattern, but was never able to get the pattern fully equal and linear at the very higher bandwidths. It was only a few days ago I got to make that happen. And I'm good on both Scope and pattern. I also use several other patterns, but the SMPTE when used properly can be the tool for best image quality.
There is much talk about the effects of 3D, but because of the weaknesses of our stock video chains, we really did not experience 2D. Because 2D can only be experienced at native rates starting at 1920X1080P. Therein explains why I don't use scalers and processors. It has to be Native. True 2D also requires a ton of bandwidth, also meaning the video chain either has to have a very good FLAT bandwidth performance, or be able to exceed the native bandwidth rating by at least 1/3. When you go over by 1/3, is when you know you have the proper speed to keep the black reference in the image, and that means speed.
I'll be posting a few more screenshots after I get the C element and put it in the Marquee. And based on my last shots (not posted) before I really finished things, I'm sure the 2D that I'm able to see on my screen will also be apparent in my shots, as can be seen already in the shots I have not posted.
So in my down time, I think I've done quite well with it probably my last work on the video chain. I have to now get back to work on commercial A/V systems. So I'll be wrapping this up this week and getting busy elsewhere. But will still be around here, but will leave any work I've done concerning these mods to someone else who'll be around here. It then moves mostly to commercial sales. I'm not expecting much HT, because this work is going to have a different price tag.
Go forward with your work. I'll keep an eye on this thread, and if I can suggest or offer you any help on anything I'll be around for that. I think it's good you'll looking at this kind of work. just do your best to also make it enjoyable..
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | Mike, those screenshots looking good indeed. I actually appreciate your achievments in the Marquee bandwidth extension. And I have no means to compete your work -in any financial manner at least |
Yes, very costly over these years to make happen, but it has also been an hobby.
The last work has not been tested in full operation (RGB), because I've damaged my Blue C element, and should have the replacement in later today to go further.
As you mentioned earlier, there is a difference between the Test Patterns and Scope evaluations. Both have their merits, and both should be used. However, the SMPTE pattern that we display a lot truly is a good final test. It's a simple pattern, that over time you get to learn a lot about. For instance, and with all my previous posting of it. The one I posted in this thread is the first showing full resolve of that posted resolution. But in order to get there, you'll also need to include the scope, because you have to look at speed, rise/fall and make sure the video chain is clean enough to handle that finer bandwidth performance. The scope can say yes, but there are other things that will prevent you from seeing it on the actual screen. And that's why you'll see most video chips later started showing the noise level in the specs.
When they manufactured the projectors, the scope told them one thing. But we know it's a different experience on screen. And that's because they did not include the proper test pattern as a rule. The SMPTE pattern when you get intimate with it will also show you linearity, black reference, speed, and noise. And there's still a few other things it gives you a window into.
It took me years, and I also have to say that Scott (VDC) sent me something a week or so ago that really helped me take things to the next level. Before this, I depended more on the pattern, but was never able to get the pattern fully equal and linear at the very higher bandwidths. It was only a few days ago I got to make that happen. And I'm good on both Scope and pattern. I also use several other patterns, but the SMPTE when used properly can be the tool for best image quality.
There is much talk about the effects of 3D, but because of the weaknesses of our stock video chains, we really did not experience 2D. Because 2D can only be experienced at native rates starting at 1920X1080P. Therein explains why I don't use scalers and processors. It has to be Native. True 2D also requires a ton of bandwidth, also meaning the video chain either has to have a very good FLAT bandwidth performance, or be able to exceed the native bandwidth rating by at least 1/3. When you go over by 1/3, is when you know you have the proper speed to keep the black reference in the image, and that means speed.
I'll be posting a few more screenshots after I get the C element and put it in the Marquee. And based on my last shots (not posted) before I really finished things, I'm sure the 2D that I'm able to see on my screen will also be apparent in my shots, as can be seen already in the shots I have not posted.
So in my down time, I think I've done quite well with it probably my last work on the video chain. I have to now get back to work on commercial A/V systems. So I'll be wrapping this up this week and getting busy elsewhere. But will still be around here, but will leave any work I've done concerning these mods to someone else who'll be around here. It then moves mostly to commercial sales. I'm not expecting much HT, because this work is going to have a different price tag.
Go forward with your work. I'll keep an eye on this thread, and if I can suggest or offer you any help on anything I'll be around for that. I think it's good you'll looking at this kind of work. just do your best to also make it enjoyable.. |
Thanks for the encouraging words, the main task is to move my XG from its 30MHz bandwidth point to a better level. Even the stock VNBs will do this right away, but I have to mate them with the NEC and there are other (more important) concerns to solve for safe and stable operation...
For now I would measure the bandwidth just out of curiousity, and later I'll see if I can anything to it.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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koldby
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 126
Location: Denmark
TV/Projector: GJAKY modded VDC marquee 9500lc ultra
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| Link Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Was there ever any conclusion on these new neckboards?
Are they better than the old ones?
Why did VDC redesign the neckboards if they turn out to be the same or worse?
Koldby
_________________
What is home theater without good sound?
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| koldby wrote: |
Why did VDC redesign the neckboards if they turn out to be the same or worse?
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Because the supply for the originally used transistors dried up, so they had to redesign it anyway to keep the productline alive.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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koldby
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 126
Location: Denmark
TV/Projector: GJAKY modded VDC marquee 9500lc ultra
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| Link Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Mike Parker talks about them in a threat on AVS forum and says thay have greater bandwith and better black level.
Is this still the cnclusion?
Koldby
_________________
What is home theater without good sound?
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koldby
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 126
Location: Denmark
TV/Projector: GJAKY modded VDC marquee 9500lc ultra
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| Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Anything new about these new neckboards. Better bandwith?
Linearity?
Black level?
Koldby
_________________
What is home theater without good sound?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| koldby wrote: | Anything new about these new neckboards. Better bandwith?
Linearity?
Black level?
Koldby |
I've heard that they do well with bandwidth. That's most likely 1080P. Not sure their best bandwidth rating. But with me waiting on a set to get to me, I'll be able to get a look at them with my present pattern generator.
What I'm also hearing about them is that you're not really able to drive them well past Contrast 60. And on one de-install, that was the complaint with the Marquee projectors. And it seems to be what others have also reported. I've been challenged to look at the problem with them. Scott had sent me a set back when they were in design, but can't seem to find them, so I'm waiting on another set from someone else. I think they yanked Scott away from them and put him on another urgent design. The originals were running out of sourced parts, so Scott had to do an entire board design. And he did well, only that he did not have the time to work out that particular link with the gain.
I have a website almost done. On it, I will be showing my Commercial Video chain mods for the original version. I'm hoping to also by then have a solution for the new boards that will have the gain problem solved. According to VDC, there is a ton of their Marquee's still being used.
There's something here also on them:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/16-crt-projectors/1956425-vdc-marquee-new-style-neckboards.html#post33184361
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Link Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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I know, this thread has been dead for a year now.
But I will be offering some of these new VDC neck cards for sale in about a week.
They are part number VDC 03-270340-01P and they are the variety that can be mixed and matched with "legacy" neck cards.
VDC's price on these cards is 740 dollars each.
I have a "quantity" of these cards available. Several sets. Since I have not yet decided how many I want to keep for my
own uses, let's just say for now that they're avaiable unless I say otherwise.
Pricing...I have no clue what to ask for them because nobody's ever sold them here before, as far as I can tell.
So you tell me. Would you pay 150 per card for them? That's about what a good and desirable lens is worth, so I figure that's probably a fair starting point.
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GREG1292
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 417
Location: indiana
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:40 am Post subject: |
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I don't get why they are so special. Are they any good for modding?
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Nobody ever said they're special. They had to be built due to the lack of supply of the critical power transistors that were central to the design of the original neck cards.
That being said, in stock form they have superior bandwidth peformance as compared to stock exampes of the 2038/2039 series cards.
Mike Parker has seen them do 266 MHz bandwidth. That's without modifications, if I recall correctly.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: |
That being said, in stock form they have superior bandwidth peformance as compared to stock exampes of the 2038/2039 series cards.
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Bandwidth, yes. but they have some linearity problem as I hear, in their stock form you barely can go beyond 50 contrast or so woithout "clipping".
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Which is something that can probably be addressed by suitable modifications.
However, I will refer my questions to the designer of these cards. I know Scott, and if anybody knows how to improve
them still further, I would expect it to be him.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: | Which is something that can probably be addressed by suitable modifications.
However, I will refer my questions to the designer of these cards. I know Scott, and if anybody knows how to improve
them still further, I would expect it to be him. |
I also know Scott -not personally though- he helped me a lot with my NEC XG-VNB neckboard project, he actually gave me a prototype VDC standalone power supply for the neckboards.
The story for these boards is: while Scott know about the exsistance of the problem, he was steered away from solving it at company level, so he got another projects. Mike Parker claims he knows how to modify them, the problem is said to be around the beam limiting circuit as he says.
Also the output circuit seems to be more vulnerable (to sparks) than the original boards.
Not that I wouldn't want to try one of these in the future, but the price seems to be crazy about it (I know your is a bit different being a NOS).
But in the end eitherway you buy a new style or old style neckboard board and serious about performance you will most likely going to pay for a modifications, then it all boils down for the base price of the neckboards. But you can get old style neckboards basically 20USD / pc or maybe even less. So I'm wondering who is actualy considering buying the new style boards.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I'll price mine to sell. I just got the first 10 in today. They're as described, new in the box, still in sealed antistat bags.
I'd do 150 for a set of three and that's for new cards, not used pulls with who knows how many hours on them.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: | Well, I'll price mine to sell. I just got the first 10 in today. They're as described, new in the box, still in sealed antistat bags.
I'd do 150 for a set of three and that's for new cards, not used pulls with who knows how many hours on them. |
I understand 9 of those 10 you had sold already. Considering the problems that were mentioned concerning these neck boards, I'm shocked that someone purchased them so quickly...
You should get more CJ..
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Nah, I've got about 150 "classic" neck cards to go through, test, and repair instead. Any with the two can transistors automatically
become parts supplies for any other.
I'm ordering up a hundred new 22uf 160V 105C caps to recap every repaired board. For starters.
I expect to pull about 20 good sets out of all this stuff. Maybe more with a little luck.
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